Any thoughts on using vertical polishers?

Hmmm :) I think I have enough of an excuse to buy one and give it a spin (pun intended) and see how it does :) Do you guys think it's specs / operating range are sufficient for 99% of stuff non-professional that is not running a business, but sometimes has to tend to badly neglected car, will come across?
 
Accumulator said:
It could be my misunderstanding (and I sympathize with how hard this stuff is to explain!) but I would've thought it the other way around with regard to what's awkward/not :confused I follow your explanation it just seem the reverse of what *seems to me* (at first blush) intuitively obvious. Note that I was thinking more about control of the machine than supporting its weight, maybe that's the problem..



Making sure I'm following your right: You're saying that the guy working on the side of the right front fender of the Maserati would have an easier time of it if he used the *other* polisher, the "flat" one, right? And that the guy doing the top of the left front fender of the Ferrari is having an *easier* time of it than the guy using the "flat" polisher on the roof, right?



Yes, that's more or less what I meant. Again, I'm not very experienced, but that was what I noticed. However, on horizontal surfaces, the technique I learned was to move the machine in a linear direction fore and aft, ie away from your body and back (NOT side to side). I think I remember you saying that you like to do it in a figure eight pattern, so that would be a very different situation. Also, this does not take height into account, so I suspect that the vertical polisher might actually be more difficult on a horizontal surface where the user's arms could not be held at a comfortable level and his forearms out straight or tilted slightly down (I did my roofs on a step, adjusting for that).



Which guy is having an easier time on the Ferrari is impossible for me to answer; I suspect that both of those guys tend to use one or the other for various other reasons. My comments were just based on the method I was taught on; I suspect that as I get more experience with my machine, my technique (as it were :o ) and opinions will change.





Todd
 
ZoranC said:
Hmmm :) I think I have enough of an excuse to buy one and give it a spin (pun intended) and see how it does :) Do you guys think it's specs / operating range are sufficient for 99% of stuff non-professional that is not running a business, but sometimes has to tend to badly neglected car, will come across?



Sure! Just FYI, though, I've noticed that both speed adjustable and non-adjustable VERTICAL polishers tend to have a lower RPM range (for the JDM ones I've looked at, somewhere between 1000-1800), whereas the other types can be set at much higher speeds. I've never looked at a Makita, though. I don't know the reason for the difference.
 
percynjapan- Thanks for elaborating. Yeah, it sounds like one of those things that you just have to experience (and a few times too) before you can really know for sure. Let us know how it works out for you, sure sounds more intriguing than I'd expected when this thread started!



And yeah, I do tend towards figure-eights, but it's not like I'd have a problem using a different motion with a differently configured machine. The machine dicatates the motion IMO and what feels natural is generally what's best (again, just IMO).
 
percynjpn said:
Sure! Just FYI, though, I've noticed that both speed adjustable and non-adjustable VERTICAL polishers tend to have a lower RPM range (for the JDM ones I've looked at, somewhere between 1000-1800), whereas the other types can be set at much higher speeds. I've never looked at a Makita, though. I don't know the reason for the difference.

Makita is variable speed 600-1200RPM 7.9amps. When would one need less than 600? When would one need more than 1200?
 
ZoranC said:
Makita is variable speed 600-1200RPM 7.9amps. When would one need less than 600? When would one need more than 1200?



Well, again, I'm no expert, but for lower RPMs what you get is a safety zone -the higher the speed, the more friction and therefore heat, therefore the higher chance for paint damage. My "expert" friend tells me that he rarely uses either machine below 1500; but to put it in perspective he uses only rotaries for all his work (ie, even LSP application) simply because they're so much faster than dual action machines. He is, however a long time pro, and even works prepping cars for Mazda and others at the Tokyo Motor Show and other venues.



Higher speed means less work time, plain and simple. However, even at 600rpms, you'd likely be working the paint harder than you would with a Cylco at it's set 3000rpms (that's just an estimate, though). After seeing how fast the rotary took out scratches at 1200rpms, I don't see how I'd ever need anything faster. My friend says simply that he works them at high speed only to save time (and therefore be able to do more cars in the same time period), but has total control due to experience.



In summary, I can't imagine how I'd ever need a machine with higher RPMs; for the lower end, I already have a Cyclo and a dual action, anyway. Hope this helps.





Todd
 
percynjpn said:
Higher speed means less work time, plain and simple. However, even at 600rpms, you'd likely be working the paint harder than you would with a Cylco at it's set 3000rpms (that's just an estimate, though). After seeing how fast the rotary took out scratches at 1200rpms, I don't see how I'd ever need anything faster. My friend says simply that he works them at high speed only to save time (and therefore be able to do more cars in the same time period), but has total control due to experience.



In summary, I can't imagine how I'd ever need a machine with higher RPMs; for the lower end, I already have a Cyclo and a dual action, anyway. Hope this helps.

Thank you a lot, that helps a ton, it gives me exactly what I needed to know. :)
 
percynjpn said:
However, even at 600rpms, you'd likely be working the paint harder than you would with a Cylco at it's set 3000rpms (that's just an estimate, though)

From your experience with Cyclo and PC which one you think would work paint harder using 4in pads on both, Cyclo or PC at # 6 speed, and would there be a significant difference?



I am wildly guessing PC would work harder by significant margin because I've heard people say they burnt paint with 4in pads on PC, while I didn't come across "accident reports" with Cyclo, but I can only wildly guess while you probably know.



If my guess that PC would work it harder is correct that then could you (gu)esstimate what would be PC speed setting equivalent of Cyclo when using 4in pads? #3? #4?



Thank you again!
 
ZoranC said:
From your experience with Cyclo and PC which one you think would work paint harder using 4in pads on both, Cyclo or PC at # 6 speed, and would there be a significant difference?



I am wildly guessing PC would work harder by significant margin because I've heard people say they burnt paint with 4in pads on PC, while I didn't come across "accident reports" with Cyclo, but I can only wildly guess while you probably know.



If my guess that PC would work it harder is correct that then could you (gu)esstimate what would be PC speed setting equivalent of Cyclo when using 4in pads? #3? #4?



Thank you again!



I'm sorry, but I've never used a 4" pad on my dual action sander (I actually bought 1 each of the LC yellow and orange for that purpose, but before I ever gave them a try, I bought the Cyclo.)



I think Accumulator could answer this question, though.



If the "burnt paint" reports are true, I guess it's because the folks using them are concentrating on severe spot removal with very strong pressure applied to the machine, for unusually long times. I suspect that doing the same with a Cyclo (with two pads on a larger area, of course) could cause even worse damage, though due to the pad surface area, much more pressure would be required - but I'm not sure.



Concerning the speed setting on the "PC", I couldn't say, because the machine I use does not indicate it; it simple shows a "+/ -" mark below the switch with no calibration; it'd have to be at the high end of the scale, I'd think.
 
Thank you :) Now that I think about it, I shouldn't be asking this, I should just get few pads and junk panels and find out answer myself :) so I will :)



Thank you again!
 
ZoranC- I'm the guy who did the paint damage (burned? :nixwiess but I damaged it and it did look like a rotary burn) with the PC/4" Cyclo green/ 3M 05933 (pretty mild combo).



IMO the PC/4" is probably more aggressive than the Cyclo but I dunno by how much. Note that I didn't always think this, but I'm coming to this conclusion after doing more work with the PC/4".



Yesterday I corrected a RIDS on the S8 with the PC/4" combo (too small an area for the Cyclo, not a deep enough RIDS to *really* require the rotary). The PC/4" orange/H-T HC was aggressive enough to do the work and IMO the Cyclo would've taken longer. It still took long enough that I dunno if *not* using the rotary/4" was a good idea..probably should've used that for at least the majority of the work.



I think the PC/4" and Cyclo are pretty close, with the edge going to the PC for ability and to the Cyclo for user-friendliness. I do *not* think that the difference in ability gets to the point of "you *can* do it with the PC but you *can't* do it with the Cyclo" though but maybe the damage I caused with the PC and the fact that I've *never* done anything remotely like that with the Cyclo means that I'm wrong about that :confused: No question which one is more pleasant to use though; I'd rather spend a hour with the Cyclo than half an hour with the PC any day.
 
Accumulator said:
I think the PC/4" and Cyclo are pretty close, with the edge going to the PC for ability and to the Cyclo for user-friendliness. I do *not* think that the difference in ability gets to the point of "you *can* do it with the PC but you *can't* do it with the Cyclo" though but maybe the damage I caused with the PC and the fact that I've *never* done anything remotely like that with the Cyclo means that I'm wrong about that :confused: No question which one is more pleasant to use though; I'd rather spend a hour with the Cyclo than half an hour with the PC any day.

Accumulator,



Thank you for your detailed and helpful reply. As you might guess from my questions I am trying to gauge where certain tool would be more appropriate and what are traps to watch for. Of course, nothing can replace hands-on experience but living in the apartment building I am very limited in what I can do and where I can do it, so I have to ask in order to minimize chance of costly mistakes. Still, I need to find a way to practice.



When it comes to pleasure of use I am thorougly satisfied with Cyclo. I have lower back injury and right elbow injury so I am very sensitive to any irritation tool has on body. I had practically none due to Cyclo so that tells a lot.



I liked result I achieved with Cyclo (which newb wouldn't even if it sucked big time compared to what pros can?) but I ended up with impression that even though huge part of it is due to my inexperience (using too much material, too light pressure, moving too fast, all the wrong things inexperienced newb like me ends up doing) there is a possibility Cyclo was not working that paint strong enough for me.



When I was thinking what could be causing that (if I was correct) it's design was coming to my mind. It was leaving me with impression that manner it was designed in results in heat spread across larger area (meaning lower spot focused heat) which would make it safer (less chance of burning) than single 4in pad but also not as "aggressive" as single 4in pad (because from what I read temperature plays a role in whether polishing will be achieved and how fast). Somehow I was concluding PC would be better if you have "bad condition" to attack and spot work, while Cyclo would be better for those final "perfection passes". Of course, knowing less than nothing when it comes to polishing there is a huge chance I am way off, but that was my train of thought.



Also, one "user friendliness" issue I had with Cyclo was that I was feeling it's "working surface" is not good fit for panels / body lines like ones on my car (3rd generation Supra, has "bends" with many areas not big enough to properly apply Cyclo on, think something like BMW Z4). So, many moons later I got G100 as an early birthday gift, I will be taking "newb" class at Meguiar's in few weeks and ordering some DVDs, and will give it another shot with both and hopefully will know enough to be able to come back and say "now those were some stupid questions I was pestering guys on Autopia with" :)
 
ZoranC- Nah, you still shouldn't see 'em as "stupid questions" ;) let alone "pestering" :D



I dunno how much heat has to do with it, but I agree that using the PC/G100 with 4" pads for the serious areas might be better than using the Cyclo. Then using the Cyclo for areas that it *can* handle for a follow up...yeah, that's probably how I'd handle it.



I understand the dilemma with the rotary...some people simply *cannot* practice/etc. to the point of gaining a degree of mastery that they consider necessary. It's easy for others to say "do this until you're proficient" but that's not always feasible. Still, I bet you could use one (very carefully, which I bet you'd be fine with) for some stuff without problems as long as you're willing to err on the side of caution.



I know exactly what you mean about the Cyclo not doing certain panels. It's a bit of a drag when the panels it can't do are on *your* car, huh?
 
Well my curiousity is peaked enough I may try one of these things out. I use only my DeWalt 849 rotary. It's what I learned on when I started autobody work and painting years before I caught the detailing bug.



On horizontal surfaces it's a pleasure to work with but working vertical surfaces like doors it's a bit too much sometimes.



You have to try and keep the pad flat, guide the machine, and inspect your progress. Now this is nothing different than on a horizontal surface but the kick here is you are suppporting the weight of the machine with your arms.



I guess what I'm trying to say is on a horizontal surface "down" is the direction in which you are working on, whereas "down" on a vertical surface is the floor where the work surface is actually in front of you.



MorBiD
 
Accumulator,



Accumulator said:
Nah, you still shouldn't see 'em as "stupid questions" ;) let alone "pestering" :D

Man, I wish all the forums out there and their members were this friendly and polite :)



Accumulator said:
I dunno how much heat has to do with it ...

Heat was just a guess made in the absence of having something better, like knowledge or experience. Other possibility I was contemplating was differences in how tight orbit is, which would change "agressivness" but would also again result in temperature difference as side effect. But again, not having data, knowledge, and experience, it was just wandering.



Accumulator said:
I understand the dilemma with the rotary... Still, I bet you could use one (very carefully, which I bet you'd be fine with) for some stuff without problems as long as you're willing to err on the side of caution.

I'm definitely not easily scared of trying and definitely want much better than what I end up with right now (otherwise I wouldn't be here asking questions and I would have never dared to put Cyclo against my own car very first time I had it in hands, first result of which can be found at http://www.suprapics.com/pics/ZC-DSCN0732.JPG), and erring on side of caution is in my nature, so attempting "rotary" is definitely what I will do in next several weeks, with very next detail of my car(s).



I won't be trying regular rotary though. I will be trying this Makita vertical polisher. For some reason I have gut feeling it will be better for me and I figure one can not see different perspectives if he doesn't explore paths outside beatten ones. I will let you know how it turns out :)



Accumulator said:
I know exactly what you mean about the Cyclo not doing certain panels. It's a bit of a drag when the panels it can't do are on *your* car, huh?

You can say that twice because seeing my car looking great and knowing I am the one that did it gives me double satisfaction.



Thank you again!



With regards,



ZoranC
 
ZoranC- I'll be looking forward to your take on the vertical polisher. I do recommend that you study up enough that everything important (e.g., the way heat doesn't dissipate on plastic panels, making them more "rotary-fragile") will be kept in mind. It's easy to forget stuff like that when you're concentrating on the myriad other things that matter with the rotary.



As I've often posted, I hadn't use a rotary in over 20 years, had *never* used one on b/c paint, yet I took the Makita right out of the box and used it on my beloved S8. No problems at all. So it's not really all *that* daunting if you keep your thinking cap on.



Yeah, Autopia is a pretty nice place, sure is different from most of the other auto-centric sites I've visited.



Oh, and the link to pics of your Supra didn't work when I tried it :(



MorBid- You too? OK, you gotta post about what you think of it too. Sheesh, for the little bit I use a rotary I shouldn't be so interested in this :o
 
Accumulator said:
Sheesh, for the little bit I use a rotary I shouldn't be so interested in this :o

Beware, if it turns out to be a hidden gem you might get a toy shopping urge. :waxing:
 
ZoranC said:
OK, who's gonna be first, me or you? Race is ON! :D



I duuno, I could sort use it right now, Mikita list some distributors near me, but I have to call and see if they can beat the $169.00 I've seen it for on-line.



If Lowes had it I' would've gotten it by now.



Getting it first doesn't count, getting and doing/posting a write-up does :2thumbs:
 
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