85rd failed. Any idea why?

Nth Degree

Nth Degree

New member
Had a very frustrating incident today. Polishing a '93 Black Corvette ZR-1 with only 8K miles on it.:drool: Typical swirling.:inspector: After about 10 hours washing, claying, compounding I was ready to move on to 85rd. It was a 1 hour commute so I wanted to finish in one day. I came prepared for a 16 hour day.

Problem was the 85rd was being difficult to remove. I was creating marring with just removal. Using heavy dose of IPA didn't help. The paint was on the hard side and took quite a while to correct. (105 & D300 on yellow LC pad, PC) At first I thought it was just streaking, but it was actually marring. Obvious thought was towel. I had a bundle of brand new towels, same problem. Tried po203 and had no marring, but was a little more difficult than normal to remove. D301 didn't give a problem, but didn't cut enough. Tried following the po203 with 85rd on black pad, same problem.:wall

Needless to say, I didn't finish and will be finishing in a few days. I simply chose not to push to finish because I had lost too much time and didn't want to keep the customer up past midnight waiting for me to leave. I will experiment on my own car to see if the problem is replicated and, if so, try to narrow down the problem.

The question: Is it possible the 85rd has gone bad? I haven't used it in a few weeks. (haven't done much detailing as the temps have been around 100 for 2+ weeks.) Is it possible the heat has affected it. Could it be an environmental thing? (Temp was about 85-90, moderate humidity.)

I'm not a newb and this is the first time I have ever had a problem I couldn't figure out. Just want to know if I'm missing something or if anyone else has experienced similar problem with a product.
 
dwgcmc said:
Problem was the 85rd was being difficult to remove.

(Temp was about 85-90, moderate humidity.)
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Wow, I've never had a problem removing 85RD. Usually isn't hardly anything left to remove after I work it to exhaustion. Were you working inside?

I had a problem once removing the normally sweet wiping D300. As it got darker out the humidity was rising outside the garage and it became impossibly smeary. Gave up and went back at it the next morning after the sun came up and it returned to it's normal easy removal. Perhaps temp or humidity was a factor for you.

TL
 
I've used Menzerna PO85RD allot and never had a problem removing it. The ambient temperature and surface temperature are the most likely cause for this.

If I remember correctly Menzerna products are water based so Isopropyl Alcohol doesn't mix and dissolve this product. I've found, with the help of a friend, that plain water does a great job at cleaning everything up. To take it one step further I mix up a light car wash solution and give the area a quick wash and dry then I'm good to go! :bigups
 
I have some older 85rd and never had issues but I also never polished in high heat and humidity. I bet they are the culprits.
 
I'm thinking the heat probably was your problem... I don't know if you have any, but maybe try substituting in 3M Ultrafina instead?
 
dwgcmc said:
Had a very frustrating incident today. Polishing a '93 Black Corvette ZR-1 with only 8K miles on it.:drool: Typical swirling.:inspector: After about 10 hours washing, claying, compounding I was ready to move on to 85rd. It was a 1 hour commute so I wanted to finish in one day. I came prepared for a 16 hour day.

Problem was the 85rd was being difficult to remove. I was creating marring with just removal. Using heavy dose of IPA didn't help. The paint was on the hard side and took quite a while to correct. (105 & D300 on yellow LC pad, PC) At first I thought it was just streaking, but it was actually marring. Obvious thought was towel. I had a bundle of brand new towels, same problem. Tried po203 and had no marring, but was a little more difficult than normal to remove. D301 didn't give a problem, but didn't cut enough. Tried following the po203 with 85rd on black pad, same problem.:wall
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I have found the paint on the C4 Corvette's (Including a C4 ZR-1 that Brian_Brice, Angelo, and myself detailed) to be a little finicky. When we talk about paint systems we have to remember that they vary DRAMATICALLY in not only chemical makeup but also what has been done to it through out its life. (IE what chemicals it has been subjected to, silicons, waxes, and so on).

Every once in a while you will run into a paint where a particular product just doesn't work well, and every once in a while you will run into a paint where a particular product just rocks. If you read forum reviews you will usually find opinions from various people that are often contradictory, and a lot of times this can be attributed to how something interacts with a particular paint. On my wife's Sonata everything lasts a long time, even if I leave it in the sun for months. However on my old car, certain LSPs would fail under a month, even those that are renowned for excellent longevity.

You could also get a little cheimcal interference from the previously applied product, in your case D300. D300 has silicone in it and Menzerna has a reputation of having a love/hate relationship with certain silicons. Michael Stoops from Meguiar's authored an article where they had a hard time getting D300 to cut after wiping the car with Last Touch Detail Spray (if my memory serves me correctly).

I would wash the ZR-1 or wipe it down with a paint prep product to ensure the paint is squeaky clean and limit the possibility of any chemical interference.

Needless to say, I didn't finish and will be finishing in a few days. I simply chose not to push to finish because I had lost too much time and didn't want to keep the customer up past midnight waiting for me to leave. I will experiment on my own car to see if the problem is replicated and, if so, try to narrow down the problem.

Then try PO85rd with a clean pad and see if this happens. On the particular Corvette ZR-1 that Brian, Angelo, and I polished, 85rd just didn't play well. I ended up switching to PO106fa (it may have been 106ff to be honest) and it solved all issues, the polish worked like a champ, and that was that.

Sometimes the best we can do is set all variables to our side (clean the paint of oils, use a fresh pad, experiment with different techniques) and even then certain products just won't play well on particular paint systems.

The question: Is it possible the 85rd has gone bad? I haven't used it in a few weeks. (haven't done much detailing as the temps have been around 100 for 2+ weeks.) Is it possible the heat has affected it. Could it be an environmental thing? (Temp was about 85-90, moderate humidity.)
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I don't think the problem is with PO85rd per say. Look at your bottle. Is it greasy or is the label look 'wet'. With polishes, the biggest thing in them going bad is when the solvents begin to leech out through the bottle which changes then chemical makeup of the product. I have bottles of Menzerna that are more than 5 years old and still work great and Menzerna seems pretty stable so I don't think this is the issue.

The environment could definitely play a HUGE role in how products react, although I personally have noticed this more with PO83 (SIP) and 106fa than with PO85rd. PO85rd is pretty stable in its performance. That said I always keep a bottle of PO87mc (Final Polish II) around because it literally seems impervious to the environmental conditions we see in Florida.

I'm not a newb and this is the first time I have ever had a problem I couldn't figure out. Just want to know if I'm missing something or if anyone else has experienced similar problem with a product.
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The more cars you polish the more you will run into these unique situations where stuff just doesn't work (whether it be a glass cleaner, a tire dressing on particular rubber, and so on). It's likely nothing your doing, its completely normal (if not rare). There is nothing wrong (IMO) with switching to a different product if you cannot get something to work on a particular day, in a particular part of the world, on a particular car. :bigups
 
Thanks everyone, Todd especially. Responses like yours are part of why I loved TID over other forums.

Todd Helme said:
I have found the paint on the C4 Corvette's (Including a C4 ZR-1 that Brian_Brice, Angelo, and myself detailed) to be a little finicky.
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I have had paints before that didn't respond as well with certain products, but never anything to this extreme.

Todd Helme said:
I would wash the ZR-1 or wipe it down with a paint prep product to ensure the paint is squeaky clean and limit the possibility of any chemical interference.
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I did wash the car after compounding with CGCW to get rid of dust and did a quick IPA wipe just to be sure. Has never failed me in the past. Even if this were the issue, the 203 would likely have removed any remaining D300 and I shouldn't have had a problem when followed with 85rd. When I go back, I will test a spot again, though, and try hitting a spot with just 105 to see if it reacts differently.

Todd Helme said:
On the particular Corvette ZR-1 that Brian, Angelo, and I polished, 85rd just didn't play well.
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This is good to know. This customer was referred by another who, after riding in this ZR-1 went out and bought one as well in torch red. I know I will be detailing that one in the near future as well.

Todd Helme said:
I don't think the problem is with PO85rd per say. Look at your bottle. Is it greasy or is the label look 'wet'. With polishes, the biggest thing in them going bad is when the solvents begin to leech out through the bottle which changes then chemical makeup of the product. I have bottles of Menzerna that are more than 5 years old and still work great and Menzerna seems pretty stable so I don't think this is the issue.
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Nothing visibly wrong with the bottle or product.

TLMITCHEL said:
Wow, I've never had a problem removing 85RD. Usually isn't hardly anything left to remove after I work it to exhaustion. Were you working inside?

I had a problem once removing the normally sweet wiping D300. As it got darker out the humidity was rising outside the garage and it became impossibly smeary. Gave up and went back at it the next morning after the sun came up and it returned to it's normal easy removal. Perhaps temp or humidity was a factor for you.
Click to expand...

I was working in the garage, but door was open as it was cooling down outside.

Wasn't really thinking about it at the time, but the 85rd wasn't finishing down quite the same as normal. I usually would have planned a 2 day detail for something like this, but the availability of the customer and the hour drive made 1 long day more appealing.

I'm hoping it was environmental. I'm sure I'll dial it in. I was just too hot, tired and frustrated at the time.

Thanks again everyone!

Chris
 
Todd Helme said:
Chris, did you ever get it figured out?!
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Yes.:)

The car looked incredible when finished. It was never a matter of being able, just failed to finish in the desired time and was a little surprised and frustrated by the failure of the 85rd when I was already behind schedule. Since I ended up making a second trip and committed the day to it I ended up adding a stage to get the best possible result. I went with Menz Power Finish on a white pad as an intermediate stage. I had placed an order for some 106fa but it didn't arrive in time. I had just enough Final Polish II left for the finishing. LSP was BFWD of course. The owner was ecstatic and plans to have me back soon to do his Porsche (don't recall exact model) and '67 Shelby 350 GT.:drool: His wife is trying to get him to spring for her black Escalade. I seem to have "The Curse of the Black Car".:cool:

I have never posted photos of my work on any forum... have never bothered to set up snapfish account and learn to post. I'll consider doing so.
 
Glad I still have quite a bit of FPII in this case because every Fall I spruce up my dad's 'vette. I guess PO85RD is best reserved for conventional vehicles.
 
I used some PO85rd today and I found that when didn't work it enough it was a little more difficult to remove but not too hard.

It's amazing how things work against you when your trying to finish in a time frame.
 
Rocket said:
It's amazing how things work against you when your trying to finish in a time frame.
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Yeah tell me about it.... I've got a car in my garage right now that I've been working at on-and-off for a month now :yikes:

Before I'd seen it I was thinking it would take me a solid week to get everything done that I was told it needed :lol2:
 
Rocket said:
I used some PO85rd today and I found that when didn't work it enough it was a little more difficult to remove but not too hard.

It's amazing how things work against you when your trying to finish in a time frame.
Click to expand...

Yep!

A little trick to working with PO85rd (via da) is to stop when the polish is almost fully broken down and clean your pad thoroughly. Remove any spent abrasives from the pad, then polish on speed 3-4 for another 2 passes. This will make removing the residue easy and will usually speed up the process slightly (which cancels out the time that it takes to clean the paint). Technically it will result in a better finish as well.
 
Todd Helme said:
Yep!

A little trick to working with PO85rd (via da) is to stop when the polish is almost fully broken down and clean your pad thoroughly. Remove any spent abrasives from the pad, then polish on speed 3-4 for another 2 passes. This will make removing the residue easy and will usually speed up the process slightly (which cancels out the time that it takes to clean the paint). Technically it will result in a better finish as well.
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I used the tips you posted for M205 when I used 85rd and it came out great. I cleaned the pad half way through a section but next time ill do it when i lower my speed. I played with my technique some on differet spots to see how it affected the results and it's amazing how a small change can affect the finish you get.
 
Is this only with old school vets 85rd does not work well with or all year vets. I may do a c6 model and kinda curious. Don't have a full array of finisher just m205, 85rd and that's all she wrote, but I'm sure m205 will do just fine
 
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