2018 Health and Fitness Thread

[jrock645]

If youve read darden, youve basically read baye. Hes kinda darden light, imo. Has some additional commwntary on differwnt exercises and offers more workout templates but hes basically darden with a sprinkle of mentzer.

I havent used the hammer strength machines, theyre always full. I try to keep my workouts brief, generally operate on a tight schedule and just hate waiting for a machine, so ive designed my workouts to keep them moving. Big part of why i use some of the pieces i do.

I totally agree on the db presses. I have mixed feelings about them.

I like cable crosses but rarely do them because thats a station that tends to be busy at the gym. I have no time for unreliable things in my routine that wont be consistent. Things like that i just drop and do something else.

 

[jrock645]

Not letting me edit. But my workouts really are brief. After a bit of warmup primarily for mental purposes, my full 8-10 exercise full body routine including core work takes 35 minutes max including getting to and from each corner of the gym getting to what i need.

 

[jrock645]

Took till this afternoon for the soreness to really come in, but my traps and delts are absolutely trashed after the face pulls yeaterday. Definitely did those right!

 

[Accumulator]

jrock645- Ah, yeah...dealing with "getting access to the machine at the right time" would indeed be a factor.

Gee, you *do* finish up fast!

Yeah, I think we`ve discussed Baye-as-Darden-light/Mentzer before. Same ol` same ol` IMO...almost always something good in anybody`s HIT stuff, take what works for you and leave the rest.

Glad you hit your Traps and Delts so well...I can pretty much guess what "face pulls" are if that`s what go sore

I undoubtedly overdid it on Friday Back/Bis/Rear Delts/Abs is a lot for me to do on one workout anyhow (sure took forever) and I ended up doing *10 sets* for back Yeah, it`s a complicated bodypart with lots of stuff to hit, but that`s gotta be excessive. Sure do feel it though. The 4 sets for Bis and 2 for Rear Delts were more reasonable..

 

[Accumulator]

I need to do at least 2, and preferably about 4 (if I want any real progress), sets for both Bis/Tris. Just doing two will start to cost me if I do that very often.

My arms never seem to benefit from my other Upper Body work, I have to hit them with isolation exercises. Which I guess holds true for most all bodyparts.

For Bis at least, it seems I oughta be able to get by with the 2, but I don`t make progress that way and start to lose strength on some movements.

Not that I expect much progress since I`ve been training Biceps since `77 and it seems pretty basic- you bend your arm at the elbow to perform a Curl of some kind, simple huh? Still, giving thought to Elbow Position, adding the Resistance Bands to the usual (gravitational) resistance, and adding close-grip, supinated Pullups to the mix has given me a little boost. I went years, maybe decades, without really getting my Bis sore much, but these days I do feel them later and I`m certain they`re looking better though I`ve never measured them.

That "where are the elbows?" seems significant. For Bis, having my arms so that the elbows are 1) behind my torso, and 2) over my head, in addition to the usual arm curl position (in front or along side torso), were good additions. I do the same sort of thing with Tris.

For some reason it seems I can get by with fewer sets for Tris even though it`s a more complicated muscle group IMO.

 

[jrock645]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Ok, put together a new set up to blast this chest. Thoughts?

Workout A[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Leg extension[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Leg press[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Calf raise[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Lat pull[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Arnold press[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Bicep curl[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Palms up pulldown [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Reverse curl[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Workout B:[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Squat[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Abductor[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Seated calf raise[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Straight arm lat pullover[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Machine row[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Face pull[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Lateral raise[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Tricep pressdown[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Forearm curl[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Chest(Wednesday):[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Fly machine(high rep)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Smith press(heavy)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Smith incline(high rep)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Cable crossover[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Dips- negative only[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Pushups- max[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Accumulator]

jrock645- Busy day here, so I`ll spare you my comments on the other two workouts and just comment on your Chest Routine. Apologies in advance for how I always seem so critical

If you do the heaviest movements first (instead of the Flies) you`ll be stronger both physically and neurologically for them. Whenever I do something like the Flies first, I can`t do justice to the heavy movements. Yeah, opposite of what Mentzer/Jones would have ya do.

Do you have any evidence that the Neg-only Dips are beneficial to you? Ditto for the Pushups.

What range is "high rep" for you in this context?

What about doing Tris after that Chest routine instead of on a different day? While we`re both trying to emphasize the Pecs, unless my Tris are fully recovered my Chest workouts suffer. I used to do Tris the next day, but found that I get better results if I just tack them on to the end of my Chest routine.

FWIW, I`ve dropped all Negative-only movements as they just didn`t produce verifiable results,even though they did sometimes give me good soreness.

How do you keep the focus on the Pecs when doing Pushups?

If that routine is working for you, then never mind what I think

 

[Accumulator]

jrock645- I really want to comment on the other Routines but I gotta get on with the day and you probably don`t *really* want to hear my critique of `em anyhow

But !oh man! do I think I could ramp up your progress. Yes really. No additional time in the gym either I`d bet $ on it. Just tweaking the sequence of movements might make a good diff in a few areas.

Again, sorry for being so critical all the time..I can`t shake the notion that I`m being Mr. Negative Know-it-all

Oh..and you really *really* *REALLY* oughta add some Hamstring movements. Strong Hams = healthy knees if nothing else. Two good sets, maybe even just one, would be so beneficial (and would leave so so sore...). By the time you`re my age, healthy strong hams will make a serious quality-of-daily life difference.

 

[jrock645]

High rep would be 15ish reps.

I could eliminate the first flyes and put them in where the cross overs are as a one or the other. Drops volume a bit, which is probably a good thing. Though, i was gonna treat that firat set of flyes as a warmup, primarily aimed at getting the MMC eatablished which has never been real strong on chest for me.

For the pushups, idea there wasnt to necessarily isolate chest but to hit it with an explosive movement.

I just like the idea of negative only reps, being able to put more weight on something and trying to force progress like that makes sense to me. Though i totally get where youre coming from.

Good thought on the hamstring movement. Ill drop one of the calf raises and do ham curls, seated. The lying ones are hard on the back sometimes. Though i generally see presses and squats as a hamstring movement.

Im all for suggestions. Happy to hear whatever else you may have. Nothing ventured nothing gained type of thing as far as im concerned.

 

[minerigger]

I did a program off BB.com that worked well

The just of it was
Day 1: Chest, Tris, calves
Day 2: Back, Bis, Core
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Shoulders, calves
Day 5: legs, traps, core

12 week program where the 1st week each month was your light week with reps in the 12-15 range
Week 2 add 5-10 on every lift and drop reps 9-11 range
Week 3 add 5-10 on all lifts and drop reps 6-8 range
Week 4 heavy week add 5-10 and drop reps to 3-5.

Obviously do warmup sets and such

On week 5 and 9 which would be the beginning of the month you should be up 10-20 lbs on most of your lifts if your a novice. The more experienced you are the less the gains will be but the weights are usually a lot more to start with.



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[Accumulator]

minerigger- Hey, glad you`re posting on this thread!

That routine wouldn`t give me enough recovery, and I`d work Traps when doing the rest of my Back, but I`m glad it`s working well for you.

Does the cycling of weight/rep range work for you? I liked the theory, but not how the results were *in my case*.

 

[Accumulator]

Eh, I don`t really have time for a proper response, Christmas and all that...

High rep would be 15ish reps.

IMO 15 isn`t really all that high, though I once thought it was. I used to do a lot of lower-rep stuff (for years and years) before discovering that it wasn`t right for me.

I could eliminate the first flyes and put them in where the cross overs are as a one or the other. Drops volume a bit, which is probably a good thing. Though, i was gonna treat that firat set of flyes as a warmup, primarily aimed at getting the MMC eatablished which has never been real strong on chest for me.

OK, I`ll assume you know what`s best for your warmups. I have to do the Pressing movement for those as the stretch of the Flies/etc. is counterproductive if I use it for a warmup.

For the pushups, idea there wasnt to necessarily isolate chest but to hit it with an explosive movement.

Ok, I can`t really be explosive on those but that`s me. I do think that the explosive movement oughta come earlier in the workout while you`re neurologically fresh.

I just like the idea of negative only reps, being able to put more weight on something and trying to force progress like that makes sense to me. Though i totally get where youre coming from.

Two things: a lot of the stuff I really "liked the idea/theory of" didn`t really work for me, and I wouldn`t be "forcing progress" at this point, I`d be working on the MMC.

Good thought on the hamstring movement. Ill drop one of the calf raises and do ham curls, seated. The lying ones are hard on the back sometimes. Though i generally see presses and squats as a hamstring movement.

Yeah, most Leg Curl stations are awful when it comes to proper alignment for your back (including mine). Note that the Hams need to be worked with something like Good Mornings/Straight (or even just Romanian style) Deads/etc. in addition to Leg Curls. Do the Leg Curls first as Stretch Position stuff shouldn`t be the first movement.

I`ve tried relying on Squats/etc. for my Hams, but it didn`t really work out for me. Good enough when I`m rushed though.

Im all for suggestions. Happy to hear whatever else you may have. Nothing ventured nothing gained type of thing as far as im concerned.

OK, cool...I`ll quit worrying so much about being critical.

I would absolutely positively drop the Arnold Press. I can`t figure out any reason at all why that`d be a good movement and IMO it`s hurting your MMC where the Chest is concerned by getting a lot of Anterior Delt impulses going.

Are you doing the Lateral Raises with DBs or machine? Best Delt thing I ever did was dropping those in favor of (seriously pre-stretch style) cable work..it was like blowing up a balloon how my Delts responded!

 

[jrock645]

I’ve tried the cable lateral raises and even with the weight on the lowest settings I felt like it was straining the shoulder joint. Just felt all wrong. So I’ve gone back to the machine for. Also, I’ve found the cable machines terribly inconsistent in how the weight feels. 10lbs on one feels like 50 on another and vice versa.

So you’re advocating lateral raises and face pulls and no other shoulder movement?

 

[minerigger]

minerigger- Hey, glad you`re posting on this thread!

That routine wouldn`t give me enough recovery, and I`d work Traps when doing the rest of my Back, but I`m glad it`s working well for you.

Does the cycling of weight/rep range work for you? I liked the theory, but not how the results were *in my case*.

I made descent progress. Obviously some lifts do better than others. Most of my upper body movements advanced at twice the pace the lower body did. The only accept ion to the number of reps is the core and calf work. That is generally sets of 25-30.

Trust me there are days you feel like you’ve been in a car crash your sore but after a bit you get used to it I guess.



Currently I am lifting with a friend who is a retired green beret. Guy is an animal so we do a lot of squats, single leg leg press, pull ups and incline dumbbell press.

I’ve seen good gains that way as well.


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[Accumulator]

I’ve tried the cable lateral raises and even with the weight on the lowest settings I felt like it was straining the shoulder joint. Just felt all wrong. So I’ve gone back to the machine for. Also, I’ve found the cable machines terribly inconsistent in how the weight feels. 10lbs on one feels like 50 on another and vice versa...

It *IS INDEED* tricky to get all dialed-in on this one! But I believe it`s worth it or I wouldn`t belabor the topic so insufferably.

Not knowing from the Lateral Machine you`re using, maybe I`m all off-base! But I`ll assume I`m not...

I started out using *Zero* weight on my cable/pulley setup! Had to cheat a bit even then.."park the ego [Accumulator]." Had to get down on my hands and knees to be in the right position (working arm crossed way across torso at start of movement, thinkk "major pre-stretch").

The really tricky part is that the Delts are considerable stronger at the start of the movement, so what`s really needed is the opposite of the Nautilus cam; something that provides, uhm...regressive resistance. I simulate that by doing the "1 and a 1/4" movements, at least for the first few reps. If the machines you`re using do the Nautilus/Progressive thing, that`s not good.

And don`t continue the movement so far that the stress shifts to Back muscles (usually the Traps). Since the Delts get pretty weak near their peak contraction it`s so tempting to let other muscles take over to "finish the rep".

So you’re advocating lateral raises and face pulls and no other shoulder movement?

Sounds all wrong, huh?!? Heh heh, surprised you didn`t end that sentence with "!?!"

I`m doing all my direct Delt work with cables, and/but think I`d better ask for a detailed description of your "face pulls" as I *think* I might`ve misconstrued what you`re doing there.

Generally, I`d:

-Avoid all Anterior Delt work. Period. IMO they`re compromising your Chest work and messing up your MMC/recruitment
-Emphasize Posterior Delt work; very few people have good rear Delts and I can`t imagine anybody having overdeveloped ones

Keeping the focus on the areas of the Delts you want to develop oughta be the primary goal, at least initially. The shoulder JOINT shouldn`t experience strain/stress and if it does IMO something`s haywire. Maybe sorting that out will do the trick.

Wondering about what`d happen if you lowered the weight so far that you could do ~40 reps. Yeah, I`m kinda a broken-record on that technique, huh? I remember when a pal`s son asked why I had some 3lb DBs in the weight room. I showed him how I was using them to work on a specific part of my Delts and warned him he shouldn`t try it himself. I handed him a paperback book to try the movement instead and he had to cheat just to use that.

 

[Accumulator]

I made descent progress. Obviously some lifts do better than others.

I`ve gotten to where I`ve ditched a lot of "must do" movements that just didn`t work for me.

Most of my upper body movements advanced at twice the pace the lower body did.

That`s interesting! What do you think caused (still causes?) that?

The only accept ion to the number of reps is the core and calf work. That is generally sets of 25-30.

I`m doing even higher reps on some Core movements, especially for Obliques. Calves I don`t go as high as many, upping the weight when I get over ~24.

For some reason I find Single-leg Calf Raises very challenging. Seated ones are tricky for me as I don`t have a Seated Calf Station/machine and have to improvise with a barbell...the exercise itself isn`t bad, but the setup is a PIA.

Calf work in general, and some Squat/Deadlift work too, became a little tricky for me a few years ago as I have some kind of foot issue (fascia-related wear-and-tear) that I have to *NOT* aggravate.

Trust me there are days you feel like you’ve been in a car crash your sore but after a bit you get used to it I guess.

Guess I`m a weirdo in the Clarence Bass mold in that I simply *LOVE* DOMS! Even though I acknowledge that it`s not necessary to train that hard, I use the soreness as a gauge of how effective the workout was. If I *don`t* feel very sore in the targeted places I generally consider it a failed workout. Fortunately that hardly ever happens these days although I went *decades* without really getting my Biceps sore and only recently got that ironed out.

Currently I am lifting with a friend who is a retired green beret. Guy is an animal so we do a lot of squats, single leg leg press, pull ups and incline dumbbell press.

The SpecOps/HRCC guys I`ve known were indeed animals! (Meant that the same way you did, as a compliment.) I gotta say that they were all much younger than I am now, and that they needed/pursued very different goals than mine. Though I too am still doing Pullups and (sometimes) Incline DB Presses.

I bet he`s a great motivator!

 

[Accumulator]

Rather than harping on movements that nobody else will probably do (DARD work for the Tibialis Anterior anyone?), how about discussing Chins/Pullups, which IMO everybody oughta be doing?

Qs:

-Are people on this thread doing them?
-If so, at what point in the workout? (They`re my first Back movement.)
-In addition to Pulldowns or in place of them? (The former for me and/but I almost always do the Pulldowns unilaterally.)
-Rep range?
-One set or more?
-What hand positions are people using?
-What body angle?
-Bodyweight or additional resistance?
-If the latter, what kind?
-What about Rep Range and TUT?
-Explosive movements or slow?
-Does that vary with the type(s) of additional resistance?
-What about the speed of the Negatives?

If *not* doing Chins/Pullups, what do you do instead?

Gotta say that IMO everybody oughta do these. There have been at least two instances where my ability to do them, well...do at least one... saved me from, at the very least, serious injury.

 

[jrock645]

@Accumulator

the face pulls hit rear delts and to an extent, traps.

I use a cable machine with the rope attachment, and do it seated/kneeling with the pulley in a high position. Almost a rowing movement but pull the ends of the ropes toward your face. Nice and slow. Definitely a good rear delt movement, and I feel it in the main delts a bit too. Shouldn’t be hittin* the front delts at all.

Ill work on those side laterals, see if I can get to where I’m feeling them right.

 

[minerigger]

I`ve gotten to where I`ve ditched a lot of "must do" movements that just didn`t work for me.


That`s interesting! What do you think caused (still causes?) that?



I`m doing even higher reps on some Core movements, especially for Obliques. Calves I don`t go as high as many, upping the weight when I get over ~24.

For some reason I find Single-leg Calf Raises very challenging. Seated ones are tricky for me as I don`t have a Seated Calf Station/machine and have to improvise with a barbell...the exercise itself isn`t bad, but the setup is a PIA.

Calf work in general, and some Squat/Deadlift work too, became a little tricky for me a few years ago as I have some kind of foot issue (fascia-related wear-and-tear) that I have to *NOT* aggravate.



Guess I`m a weirdo in the Clarence Bass mold in that I simply *LOVE* DOMS! Even though I acknowledge that it`s not necessary to train that hard, I use the soreness as a gauge of how effective the workout was. If I *don`t* feel very sore in the targeted places I generally consider it a failed workout. Fortunately that hardly ever happens these days although I went *decades* without really getting my Biceps sore and only recently got that ironed out.



The SpecOps/HRCC guys I`ve known were indeed animals! (Meant that the same way you did, as a compliment.) I gotta say that they were all much younger than I am now, and that they needed/pursued very different goals than mine. Though I too am still doing Pullups and (sometimes) Incline DB Presses.

I bet he`s a great motivator!

Rather than harping on movements that nobody else will probably do (DARD work for the Tibialis Anterior anyone?), how about discussing Chins/Pullups, which IMO everybody oughta be doing?

Qs:

-Are people on this thread doing them?
-If so, at what point in the workout? (They`re my first Back movement.)
-In addition to Pulldowns or in place of them? (The former for me and/but I almost always do the Pulldowns unilaterally.)
-Rep range?
-One set or more?
-What hand positions are people using?
-What body angle?
-Bodyweight or additional resistance?
-If the latter, what kind?
-What about Rep Range and TUT?
-Explosive movements or slow?
-Does that vary with the type(s) of additional resistance?
-What about the speed of the Negatives?

If *not* doing Chins/Pullups, what do you do instead?

Gotta say that IMO everybody oughta do these. There have been at least two instances where my ability to do them, well...do at least one... saved me from, at the very least, serious injury.

Only thing I can figure is I’ve got a much stronger upper body. I like DOMS as long as I’m not really over stressing the muscle. The calf stuff I don’t do much of anymore, I get plenty of calf work in doing squats and dead’s. The guy is a fantastic motivator that for sure.

Agree on the pull ups. I do sets of 6 as that’s all I can crank out currently usually 4-6 sets of them. They are always the first back movement due to the fact I haven’t fatigued the muscles yet. I generally vary the grip but usually shoulder width palms facing one another or wide grip palms facing away from me. All done with just hanging body weight with full ROM. Full arm extension to full contraction with chin above the bar. They are working wonders. Focusing on pulling my elbows through my hips really fires the last and I’ve seen great gains there.


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[Accumulator]

jrock645- Ah, OK...hey, I *did* have the right idea about the Face Pulls after all! Sound like they`re just right for the rear Delts and Traps. I *really* like that you`re working the Traps with a movement like that instead of Shrugs! Rowing motions that direct the stress onto the Traps are great IMO as they hit the areas that really need it. I do stuff like that a lot more than I do any kind of shrugs and it works great for me.

The Lateral are indeed tricky to get dialed-in on! And with you training in a gym it sure won`t be as easy as it was for me since I could just fool around for however long until I got it right.

Is the pulley setup you use for those adjustable? If not, you`ll probably have to do them kneeling or on all fours (same as I have to do). If working the right side, the start position, which needs to be under tension, will have your right hand (holding the handle) across the torso`s centerline a fair bit. Keeping the arm straight oughta keep the stress on your Delts. Don`t extend the ROM too much. Besides using the very, *VERY* light weight, you might try that "1 and 1/4" movement so the start of the ROM gets extra work.

That initial big stretch seems incredibly significant, maybe because doing Laterals with DBs, which we`re all use to doing, don`t provide any real stress when you need it most so getting it right is a real eye-opener.

With a really light weight, after doing a lot of "I feel nothing" reps, you`ll start to feel the burn in whatever`s really working and then you can tweak things as needed. Be really conscious of feeling things *in the back*..traps, infrasup., tris, etc. where you don`t want it.

Gee, this has me thinking how I haven`t done any behind-neck-presses/etc. for ages...and I could do them without issues too, thought I was so lucky that way that I guess I overlooked the whole idea of why I was doing them in the first place. Now if I were lifting stuff overhead all the time and needed to be strong for that specific task it`d be different...but I find myself lacking for real-world strength so I basically no longer give it much thought. Mentioning this to acknowledge/reinforce that different people have different goals.