Rinseless washing as safe as traditional bucket?

Bunky

Bunky

Detailing Gnosis
I was wondering what specific aspect of the traditional 2 bucket wash makes it viewed as safer than a rinseless wash using ONR or DP's product or even a waterless wash.

It seems on fairly clean paint the majority opinion is that the are equally as safe using good practice techniques thus pure cleaners and providing lubricity, they seem to be rated as equal

Therefore is it the pre-rinse with a hose that really makes them equal? That is, if I hose down the car first like I would for a traditional wash it would be as safe?

From my fun with foam guns, I have not seen that big of a benefit in removing bonded crud especially on lower sides but left on it can act as extra cushion for the wash mitt.

I guess my hypothesis is if you take the same vehicle, rinse in down well, then proceed to do either a traditional 2 bucket or a rinseless wash (washing while still damp from the rinse) then they will always be equally safe no matter the condition of the vehicle?

Agree or disagree?

If you disagree, what is the extra safety done in a traditional 2 bucket without about foam down, no foaming while wiping, no prsssure washer, no modified 16 bucket method, 16 mitts or 36 towels, etc) and no radio controlled helicopters (inside joke if you know the reference) or what makes rinseless less safe,
 
I feel traditional soaps offer more lubrication and better cleaning ability.

I also use a pressure washer with my traditional washes, and IMO there is no comparison when you involve that into the mix. ;)
 
RaskyR1 said:
I feel traditional soaps offer more lubrication and better cleaning ability.

I also use a pressure washer with my traditional washes, and IMO there is no comparison when you involve that into the mix. ;)
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So you view the pressure washer as very key. To me, the soap (traditional, rinseless) can be solved with chemistry but obviously do not think rinseless is there yet.
 
Personally I don't think anything can replace bucket wash. That said ORN and PB S&W are two very good alternatives IMO.
 
Either method, done incorrectly, will result in swirls (you can even throw in waterless). I see them as a continuum - mildly dirty, waterless works fine (there are exceptions); normal rinseless; really dirty, there is no substitute for a power washer. By virtue of that statement, I am agreeing that traditional is the safest. The trick is using the appropriate for the dirtiness level and, conversely, if you've chosen a method, not letting the vehicle get out of that method's bounds.
 
I am trying to illicit opinions on what you would need to do extra to get the "safety" of a traditional process (Rasky considers pw a must) to a rinseless product.

Chris at Optimum has said you can use ONR just like a traditional soap but think some already do not agree there is anything you can do (pre-rinse, etc) to get an equivalent safe process.
 
I've read that pressure washing can damage the paint too, I try to stay away from that now. IMO if you do a good pre-soak, either method done with proper wash technique will be fine. I've heard nothing but good things about ORN.
 
If you get the nozzle too close or use too high a power pw, sure, you can peel paint off of a car - if you catch a paint chip wrong. Don't do those things. You are just ttying to knock off the loose dirt. The shampoo or rinsless lifts the dirt from the paint.
 
sc_S13 said:
I've read that pressure washing can damage the paint too, I try to stay away from that now. IMO if you do a good pre-soak, either method done with proper wash technique will be fine. I've heard nothing but good things about ORN.
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I don't think it's pressure washing that damages the paint I think it's too much pressure. You don't need 3000 psi to wash a car. Some of the smaller pressure washers are plenty to wash cars.


I think traditional washes are safer. The combination of more water and lubricants in traditional soaps make it safer.

With that said if you're smart and rinse more often you could safely do a rinseless wash on a dirty car. But thick dirt I would do a prerinse
 
Bunky said:
So you view the pressure washer as very key. To me, the soap (traditional, rinseless) can be solved with chemistry but obviously do not think rinseless is there yet.
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Yes, with either method. Getting as much dirt of the surface before it's touched with any wash method is the key to a swirl free wash.

In the harsh MN winters are cars look like this after a day of driving in the slop....no way I'm taking ONR or even traditional wash to paint looking like this without a pre-rinse from a pressure washer! Period!
20110304-_MG_4283.jpg


With my personal car, which is wearing Opti-Guard, I will run down to the coin-opp this time of year and use the harsh "pre-rinse" chemicals since it won't effect the coating, and follow it up with the soap and rise settings. Then I drive 6 blocks home and do an ONR wash, where my wash media (sponge, mitt, or MF towels) only pick up a slight amount of dirt on the extreme lower portions of the car, right behind behind the wheels. On all other panels my wash media stays visibly dirt free as the water in my bucket is also as clean as when I started. In the summer a foam cannon with a good soap is enough to have the same effect.

Rasky
 
sc_S13 said:
I've read that pressure washing can damage the paint too, I try to stay away from that now. IMO if you do a good pre-soak, either method done with proper wash technique will be fine. I've heard nothing but good things about ORN.
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In my 22 years of using a pressure washer to wash cars with I've never seen any damage from them that wasn't a direct result of improper use by the operator.
 
I myself feel that the two bucket method is the safe way due to the ability to use a pressure washer (and more water in general) and the added lubrication of more traditional soaps. The added bonus to use a prewash foam on dark colored cars is another bonus.
 
RaskyR1 said:
In my 22 years of using a pressure washer to wash cars with I've never seen any damage from them that wasn't a direct result of improper use by the operator.
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A few years back an old neighbor use a 4000PSI P/W on his car and remove some trim pieces. He was very sorry about this, because it was a MB S600....
 
RaskyR1 said:
Yes, with either method. Getting as much dirt of the surface before it's touched with any wash method is the key to a swirl free wash. In the harsh MN winters are cars look like this after a day of driving in the slop....no way I'm taking ONR or even traditional wash to paint looking like this without a pre-rinse from a pressure washer! Period!
Rasky
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Sorry for the edit Rasky !!

Question. If Chris from Optimum. is checking threads. Did they test ONR on our Northern (Salt, Sand, Slush, Snow and Sh*@) winters. If so, what were the results?? Like you I feel safer eliminating as much as possible. IMO.
 
The following is my opinion, mixed with fact, and seasoned with experience (both detailing and in product testing).

Bunky said:
I was wondering what specific aspect of the traditional 2 bucket wash makes it viewed as safer than a rinseless wash using ONR or DP's product or even a waterless wash.
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When the wash mitt (loaded with whatever solution) swipes over the gritty surface a lot of the solution acts to penetrate the dirt 'grains'. With surfactants the water is actually made wetter (the surface tension of the water is broken) so that water (which is a fairly strong solvent in relation to dirt) can flow around it. The other option is to use a lubricant (in the case of BLACKFIRE's newest wash products, the actual wet diamond polymers) to encapsulate the dirt and free it from the surface.

So regardless of the what type of wash, the first step is the actual 'freeing' of the dirt. Enough volume of product must be used (in relation to the volume of dirt) to ensure adequate lubrication. Both a two bucket wash and a rinseless wash use a large volume of solution.

Once the dirt is encapsulated it most be removed safely. This is where a traditional wash, with the ability to use a high volume of water is going to provide more 'safety. With a rinseless wash a large amount of dirt is 'floated downstream' as the wash solution runs off the paint. Some is embedded into the wash mitt or sponge and some is left in the pools of water on the surface. If there is a large amount of grit on the paint it could conceivably override the amount of lubrication available.

It seems on fairly clean paint the majority opinion is that the are equally as safe using good practice techniques thus pure cleaners and providing lubricity, they seem to be rated as equal
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I would say that most polymer based rinseless washes over more lubrication then most surfactant based car soaps. However the difference in flooding away the dirt vs. wiping it away is the equalizer. This is why, when formulating BLACKFIRE's newest offering, we added high slip polymers to all of the new wash solutions.

Therefore is it the pre-rinse with a hose that really makes them equal? That is, if I hose down the car first like I would for a traditional wash it would be as safe?
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The pre-rinse removes some grime using just water as a lubricant. A pre-soak (with a surfactant or polymer based solution) prior to the rinse will make the rinse even more effective. IE foaming the paint. Water, when used with some level of pressure, works fairly well at remove heavier and loose grit.

From my fun with foam guns, I have not seen that big of a benefit in removing bonded crud especially on lower sides but left on it can act as extra cushion for the wash mitt.
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Using a foam gun prior to the first rinse should help remove any grit that is on the paint (during a pre-rinse) in a safer manner. It may help remove more grit during the rinse, but the premise is that it adds lubricity to the surface to help prevent surface scouring.
I guess my hypothesis is if you take the same vehicle, rinse in down well, then proceed to do either a traditional 2 bucket or a rinseless wash (washing while still damp from the rinse) then they will always be equally safe no matter the condition of the vehicle?
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As long the grit on the paint doesn't overwhelm the lubricity provided by the rinseless wash, I would agree. If it is heavily caked in abrasive grit then you risk scouring the surface as you remove the dirt. (Rinsing vs. wiping).

If you disagree, what is the extra safety done in a traditional 2 bucket without about foam down, no foaming while wiping, no prsssure washer, no modified 16 bucket method, 16 mitts or 36 towels, etc) and no radio controlled helicopters (inside joke if you know the reference) or what makes rinseless less safe,
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When you agitate the solution on the surface there will be some dirt remaining. Rinsing this dirt of the paint (while it is encapsulated by water or polymers/lubricants) is more effective then wiping it off.

One thing I like to do on soiled vehicles (when using a rinseless wash) is to wash each section twice (first with a lot of solution, second with a more damp solution) to dilute and remove as much dirt as possible (via run off) prior to drying.
 
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