Buffer Madness

B

Billd55

New member
I am new to this site, but I have been detailing since the 80's. I have
done commercial and corporate aircraft, boats up to 70 ft, and
many cars, trucks, SUV's, and mini vans. One thing that strikes me as
different is that detailers got this thing to buff almost every vehicle
they do to restore a shine. I am sure that this will ruffle some feathers,
but if you consider my logic it may help you see what I am saying in a different light.

Let me start by saying that I do buff certain things such as boats and
aircraft,but I never use a wool pad or compound. Back in the old days,
you could buff out a Stage 1 paint with no problem, but since the base
coat/ clear coat that changed every thing. The clearcoat is basically
clear paint, and when it is damaged, buffing will do more harm then
help in my opinion.

I have always felt that protecting the finish with the right product before
would prevent buffing. I feel using wax is the central cause for clear coat
damage. Beside chips and scratches, the elements such as dirt, grime,
salt, bugs, treesap, acid rain,and a million other things stick like fly
paper when wax is applied. Wax sticks to the surface and provides
no protection at all.Throw in soap that contains wax and it will not be
long before the wheel will be needed.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard not to use Dawn to wash
a vehicle because it will strip the wax off and breakdown the clearcoat.
Well,my answer to that is why use wax at all.It seems to me you should
use Dawn to prevent build up.

I feel using a quality sealant will prevent the need for buffing if it is
applied on a yearlly basis. When my customers get a new vehicle they call me to start the protection, and I remind then when they need
another coat. After, three or four years they are happy that their
paint looks new. This keeps the resale value up, and the need to purchase
a new vehicle because it looks old.

People come to you to protect the second most expensive asset they
own. As a professional, they look to you for advice. Explain to them
that what a sealant has to offer over wax, and you will have all the business you can handle.

Bill D.
 
Billd55 said:
I have always felt that protecting the finish with the right product before
would prevent buffing.
Click to expand...

What about brand new cars off the showroom floor that need correction?

Maybe I'm slipping, but we had someone here not too long ago give just about this exact same song and dance.
 
To the person with the reply. Could you explain your question
clearly. What do you mean by correction? You know experts told
Henry Ford that the V8 was not possible to make, but that did not turn
out to be a song and dance.

Bill D
 
Explanation:

When you get a brand new car that's full of swirls, buffer trails, wetsanding marks, etc.

Do you do anything to correct those, or overlook it and apply your sealant?

I'm just waiting on you to drop a name of some super duper acrylic paint sealant that does everything with little to no work. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like we've heard this all before....
 
JaredPointer said:
Explanation:

When you get a brand new car that's full of swirls, buffer trails, wetsanding marks, etc.

Do you do anything to correct those, or overlook it and apply your sealant?

I'm just waiting on you to drop a name of some super duper acrylic paint sealant that does everything with little to no work. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like we've heard this all before....
Click to expand...

C'mon JP, stop being a caveman. ;)
 
Billd55:
Obviously you are being baited, but the tone of your post certainly reads like a run-up to a product that does everything for you.
That's great that you have found such a product.
If you can truthfully state that you have nothing to do with the product sales and are only an enthusiastic user, some here will be glad to hear about it.
I don't happen to have any interest and my personal opinion is that you do have an ulterior motive.
Hey, been wrong before. :)
 
Jared
I am not a snake oil salesman, but someone with alot of experience under my belt.
I was doing mobile detailing back in the early 90's. If the clearcoat has what you say it has, then it cannot be saved.

Although you make my point about buffer madness, if you protect the clear before the damage then the wheel would not be needed. An acrylic sealant will do nothing to hide damage like wax will.

I did two 737-800's for a guy in Texas several years ago using the acrylic sealant
I use. He has a website (Logisticlean.com) selling basically the thing but at a HUGE
mark up, but he spend alot money testing the product,and working with NASA.
Check it out if you want to see the facts about acrylic sealants.

Bill D
 
If I read the OP correct, you don't ever buff the surface, you just keep it clean and mask the marring and swirls with a sealant.:huh:

Now protecting the surface with the right product would keep you from buffing....that statement is laughable.

Proper washing and drying, will reduce marring, protection whether sealant or wax, will protect the clear from oxidation.

But no matter how much you protect, you will eventually need to polish the surface.
 
Billd55 said:
Jared
I am not a snake oil salesman, but someone with alot of experience under my belt.
I was doing mobile detailing back in the early 90's. If the clearcoat has what you say it has, then it cannot be saved.

Although you make my point about buffer madness, if you protect the clear before the damage then the wheel would not be needed. An acrylic sealant will do nothing to hide damage like wax will.

I did two 737-800's for a guy in Texas several years ago using the acrylic sealant
I use. He has a website (Logisticlean.com) selling basically the thing but at a HUGE
mark up, but he spend alot money testing the product,and working with NASA.
Check it out if you want to see the facts about acrylic sealants.

Bill D
Click to expand...

Bill,

This is spam no matter if you have any financial interests or not, I think we all knew this was coming


For the records, I have over 30 years of detail experince
 
Billd55 said:
If the clearcoat has what you say it has, then it cannot be saved.
Click to expand...

That's absolutely untrue, as I have done it myself on more than one occasion - as has many other folks on this detailing board.

I'm surprised it took you 6 posts to drop a site link.

In any case, you've answered any and all questions I have about your intentions and idealogy as a detailer in those few short posts.
 
Billd55 said:
Let me start by saying that I do buff certain things such as boats and
aircraft,but I never use a wool pad or compound. Back in the old days,
you could buff out a Stage 1 paint with no problem, but since the base
coat/ clear coat that changed every thing. The clearcoat is basically
clear paint, and when it is damaged, buffing will do more harm then
help in my opinion.

I have always felt that protecting the finish with the right product before
would prevent buffing. I feel using wax is the central cause for clear coat
damage. Beside chips and scratches, the elements such as dirt, grime,
salt, bugs, treesap, acid rain,and a million other things stick like fly
paper when wax is applied. Wax sticks to the surface and provides
no protection at all.Throw in soap that contains wax and it will not be
long before the wheel will be needed.

I cannot tell you how many times I have heard not to use Dawn to wash
a vehicle because it will strip the wax off and breakdown the clearcoat.
Well,my answer to that is why use wax at all.It seems to me you should
use Dawn to prevent build up.

I feel using a quality sealant will prevent the need for buffing if it is
applied on a yearlly basis. When my customers get a new vehicle they call me to start the protection, and I remind then when they need
another coat. After, three or four years they are happy that their
paint looks new. This keeps the resale value up, and the need to purchase
a new vehicle because it looks old.

People come to you to protect the second most expensive asset they
own. As a professional, they look to you for advice. Explain to them
that what a sealant has to offer over wax, and you will have all the business you can handle.

Bill D.
Click to expand...

Bill you will definitely ruffle some feathers by making these kinds of statements but hey it's a forum and everyone is encouraged to have an opinion. We have had guys come on here saying basically what you have said and it did turn out to be a sales pitch for some wonder product.

I don't know how much you have actually researched the benefits of polishing paint but let me say that your thinking that it is harmful is flawed. Like anything, polishing improperly or in excess can be harmful. Using a buffer to polish paint produces happy customers for me.

Wax or sealant is a sacrificial layer that will greatly reduce the effects of things like bug damage or bird dropping damage but if left on the surface they will damage the paint no matter what protection has been used. That's why 5 year sealants get no respect around here because they give customers a false sense of security and there is nothing special about them that would make them hold up any longer than any of the quality sealants on the market.

Your argument about wax being like fly paper for contamination has some merit IMO because I have seen this happen. It's only when the wax is on a very hot surface which has caused it to soften. I personally stick to synthetic sealants for this reason. I live in a very hot climate so I want to use something with a very high melting point.
 
Charles

I wrote my comments here to express my experiences to make
detailers see other ways to grow their business. It has taken
alot of time and effort to learn what I have.I live in Naples Fl. and
can say that there are more detailers here than in most cities.
They come and go, but I just keep adding new people. If
I did what the rest do,I would be doing something else. I do not
change what makes me money. I use 6 products which fit in a
5 gallon bucket, and a wet vac.My material costs for a car are under
$15. My clients call me, and I never advertise.

I always thought there were two things you never discuss(religion
and politics) until I found detailing forums. So, you have my word
that I am not here to push my products.

Bill D
 
Bill,

I learned many years ago that no matter what level of work a detailer provides, there is always someone who will use them. Most of that is driven on cost, some are willing to pay hundreds and others would not spend 10 bucks to clean their cars.

Your view on car care is interesting, I find it a tad off, but then if you are successful then who am I to say its wrong:D
 
Bill,

I'm a little slow here. Are you telling us the product you use is named Logisti-Seal? I've asked this a couple of different ways and though you pointed us to a site that was using "basically the thing but at a HUGE mark up" you didn't come right out and name the product. Is this your supplier?
 
Beemerboy said:
Bill,

This is spam no matter if you have any financial interests or not, I think we all knew this was coming


For the records, I have over 30 years of detail experince
Click to expand...


I think this quote speaks for itself. I know everything because I have been
detailing for 30 years, so I will close my mind and not consider something
new and different.
 
Billd55 said:
I think this quote speaks for itself. I know everything because I have been
detailing for 30 years, so I will close my mind and not consider something
new and different.
Click to expand...


I don't believe the quote you referenced says much of anything at all. Someone with 30 years experience in detailing has a right to be skeptical. BeemerBoy simply related what he saw happening. This doesn't mean he's closed minded. It is fair to say that as a new member you don't know us well enough to make that call and we you.

What is becoming seemingly apparent is that you won't answer a simple question other than to say the product you use is acrylic. You've eluded to the point that your product was similar to another. Appearances are that you don't have enough confidence in the product to give us its name. It's way too early in the game to assume members won't listen to what you have to say. That said, if you skirt the issues it's almost assured members won't take you seriously. :cool:
 
I am not using the product I mentioned for the website. The guy in TX
asked me to come to Houston to apply the product to 2 -737-800's
for him. He started LogistiClean and changed the product to his label,
and marked it up were it is not worth me using it. I buy it from his
supplier for much less.

The Logisti Seal is the acrylic sealant, and the other is a cleaner that is used prior to clean the surface. He is asking $495 for a kit that does two
vehicles(TOOO much for me). Although, the data from the tests reflects the results for the acrylic sealant I use.

BillD
 
Billd55 said:
I think this quote speaks for itself. I know everything because I have been
detailing for 30 years, so I will close my mind and not consider something
new and different.
Click to expand...

Bill

I posted that to only point out my years of experience, soully for you since your OP stated you had been detailing since the 80's...Sound like we started about the same time, although my father painted cars in the 60's as a hobby, and that's really where I started with paint correction. Detailing became a passion and hobby on the weekends and today still is

Let me address your closed minded know it all statement, about me.

Look at the amount of posts I have here, and the years I have been a member at DC. I didn't get there being closed minded, or know it all.

I've learned a lot here, and will continue to, I have shared my experience and enjoy reading about others.

Your post ruffled feathers (your words) and you knew that coming in. I haven't in anyway made judgment on you, other than your OP seemed / seems like a lead up to a product push, not uncommon on this site with someone with less than a hand full of posts.

Stick around its a great site tons of good detailers with lots of knowledge, share yours with us and we all benefit!
 
I am confused here. You all jump on me because you think I am here
to pump a product, and tell me my ideas are flawed because I offer
an opinion out of your comfort zone. Now you say that you will not take me serious unless I give you my source. This sounds like another gotta
ya moment.

Bill D.
 
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