RANT:My Love and Hate of German cars.

[PRND[S]]

I have just over 25,000 miles on my odometer and the car was tuned at 117 miles. My engine burns no oil, which is impressive for a direct injection engine.

One thing I really like (and which those in colder climates undoubtedly appreciate as well) is the thermal management on the EA888 engine, you can get hot air just fifteen seconds after engine start.

 

[Nizmo]

;2123714`]I have just over 25,000 miles on my odometer and the car was tuned at 117 miles. My engine burns no oil, which is impressive for a direct injection engine.

One thing I really like (and which those in colder climates undoubtedly appreciate as well) is the thermal management on the EA888 engine, you can get hot air just fifteen seconds after engine start.

Of course us car enthusiast know how to take care of our stuff, so we know how to combat known issues.

The water cooled exhaust manifold is definitely an interesting design. Like you said it aids in heating the water temps quickly though. Takes a little longer in my climate to get hot air. Just wish the oil would get hot quicker.

 

[Dan]

Will never get a good price for the Jeep because at least here, they discount the crap out of new Jeeps so low, no one will ever want to buy a used one when a new one is so inexpensive..

Around here they treat them like gold. I bought my Wrangler new in 2013 for $27.3k OTD, with everything. A month ago I took it to Carmax and they wrote me a check for $25k. They sold it for 28k in two weeks. Yep, a four year old base model 4 door Jeep.

 

[Accumulator]

Didn`t grow up with engines doing that, am not going to defer to carrying quarts of oil around with me to take that trip...

Accumulatorette did once point out that her A8 is the only car she`s ever had which reguired that. She doesn`t *mind* checking/topping off the oil, but to think that a hers-from-new A8 would be the "gotta watch its oil level" car seems a bit much considering most of her no-worries cars were inexpensive things.

And yeah, some recent-vintage Audis are gonna have 5-figure repair bills at some time..a faster-than-blazes RS will get spendy at some point but I gather nobody keeps `em all that long any more. But *someday*, *somebody* will have to have the work done...or will they all end up in salvage yards with ~125K on the clock?

The same gen BMW was absolutely a better handling car. The Lexus was a softer ride for sure, the key was to not drive them back to back if you wanted to fool yourself..lol.

Much as we liked the idea of a Lexus, the ones we`ve driven would`ve required a completely different driving style than we want to employ...like, "dial it back as if driving the Tahoe". Still surprised that nobody builds suspension/brake kits for them as it seems like a genuine safety issue.

I had an E36 I loved as well...

Oh man, took me *forever* to get E36 M3s out of my system!

The same gen BMW was absolutely a better handling car. The Lexus was a softer ride for sure, the key was to not drive them back to back if you wanted to fool yourself..lol. I had an E36 I loved as well,

 

[Stokdgs]

Accumulator ---

Yes, perhaps it may be fact that most Audi owners do not keep them longer than the warranty/extended warranty goes and then they cut them loose..

Too bad, but then would you really want that model Audi that has the timing belt in back of the engine that requires 80 labor hours + the actual timing belt work on your watch ?

I remember that mechanic telling me and showing me how Audi "modularized" everything under the hood so well that it takes a lot more work to perform almost anything under there..

Will always love the marque and marvel at how they can get the Interior so beautifully done with really high level quality everything..

Absolutely on board with your feelings ref Lexus handling or lack of it..

One year, I tried out a new Lexus IS350 2008 model, and while it was absolutely wonderful inside and out, I could never really get the Nav figured out, and it was very twitchy at speeds above 75.. You know, the "disconnection" from the road got worse as the speed increased on that model for some reason..

Loved the car, the shape, the paintwork, etc., but guess I will also be one who does better with "drivers cars"..
Dan F

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator ---

Yes, perhaps it may be fact that most Audi owners do not keep them longer than the warranty/extended warranty goes and then they cut them loose..

Eh, Auid doesn`t even keep critical parts available...some day ours will simply become paperweights over that, clocks ticking on the `93 already (months of searching did find a used wiper motor in a Euro salvage yard).

Too bad, but then would you really want that model Audi that has the timing belt in back of the engine that requires 80 labor hours + the actual timing belt work on your watch ?

Heh heh, neither my Audi guys nor us want my wife and me owning a newer-tech one...no way they want to be responsible for keeping one up to our standards, and IMO that speaks volumes.

Absolutely on board with your feelings ref Lexus handling or lack of it..

Despite best intentions, no way could my wife nor I drive a lux sedan as if it were the Tahoe, we`d just go nuts.

One year, I tried out a new Lexus IS350 2008 model, ..and it was very twitchy at speeds above 75.. You know, the "disconnection" from the road got worse as the speed increased on that model for some reason..[/quote]

?!?75?!? Sheesh, that`d be awful.

Loved the car, the shape, the paintwork, etc., but guess I will also be one who does better with "drivers cars"..

I thought their paint was softer than, say...our Audis. No thanks...

 

[Dan]

Yes, perhaps it may be fact that most Audi owners do not keep them longer than the warranty/extended warranty goes and then they cut them loose..

Too bad, but then would you really want that model Audi that has the timing belt in back of the engine that requires 80 labor hours + the actual timing belt work on your watch ?

I remember that mechanic telling me and showing me how Audi "modularized" everything under the hood so well that it takes a lot more work to perform almost anything under there..

Will always love the marque and marvel at how they can get the Interior so beautifully done with really high level quality everything..

The V8`s are notorious for being impossible to work on. The 4`s are shared with VW and Ok to work on. The V8 on my B7S4 was IIRC only 17 inches long, the germans were congratulating themselves on making it fit. Clearly they intended to have the car torched should it ever need anything more than an oil change. The interiors on that era Audi mid 00`s to very early 10`s were to die for. The Recaros were amazing in my S4. I started hanging out in the S4 forums and figured out I owned a ticking timebomb, literally. Between the timing chain issues, clutch issues, 1 and 2nd gear problems, DI issues, I knew it was time to dump it while I was still ahead of the game.

Ideally I`d have a german car as a fun car, not a regular daily, then I could park it and work in it if there were issues. BUT I have the Vette, and its such a solid car, needs nothing ever. I got miffed when the glove box latch broke...lol. Actually what I really need is a big garage and to figure out a way to not pay property taxes on all these cars!

 

[Oneheadlite]

Just to clarify, it’s a timing chain, not timing belt at the back of some of the engines. Biggest difference is a timing belt is something that absolutely has to be replaced, a timing chain theoretically is a non-interval setup.

Unfortunately, yes, some of them will need to be replaced. In fairness, (mentioned either earlier in this thread or in another recently), it’s not just Audi that’s missed with timing chains that don’t go the life of the car. BMW (both current and previous models), Mini, and Mercedes also have timing chain problems in some models.

Admittedly, I get a little defensive as an Audi fan; but I also don’t want the fact to get lost that every make has their problems. Back to my comment regarding all these cars with all the tech and how it will fare long term. A friend of a friend is going through major engine repair (heads off, pistons or rings replaced) in a late mode Honda oddessy van w/ 110ish K miles due to side effects of their cylinder deactivation.

And as someone who works on both Audi and BMW, give me an Audi any day. Look up “under hood creeper” - that’s what I had to buy to work on BMW’s due to their sweet packaging...

Many of these cars are 10lbs of excrement in a 5 lb bag. Some just have a bigger zipper than others. I do feel that Audi learned from their mistakes and made later models much more serviceable. Try doing an O2 sensor on an old 2.7t car, then do one on a later 3.2 model.

John

Accumulator ---

Yes, perhaps it may be fact that most Audi owners do not keep them longer than the warranty/extended warranty goes and then they cut them loose..

Too bad, but then would you really want that model Audi that has the timing belt in back of the engine that requires 80 labor hours + the actual timing belt work on your watch ?

I remember that mechanic telling me and showing me how Audi "modularized" everything under the hood so well that it takes a lot more work to perform almost anything under there..

Will always love the marque and marvel at how they can get the Interior so beautifully done with really high level quality everything..

 

[TheMeanGreen]

Accumulatorette did once point out that her A8 is the only car she`s ever had which reguired that. She doesn`t *mind* checking/topping off the oil, but to think that a hers-from-new A8 would be the "gotta watch its oil level" car seems a bit much considering most of her no-worries cars were inexpensive things.

And yeah, some recent-vintage Audis are gonna have 5-figure repair bills at some time..a faster-than-blazes RS will get spendy at some point but I gather nobody keeps `em all that long any more. But *someday*, *somebody* will have to have the work done...or will they all end up in salvage yards with ~125K on the clock?



Much as we liked the idea of a Lexus, the ones we`ve driven would`ve required a completely different driving style than we want to employ...like, "dial it back as if driving the Tahoe". Still surprised that nobody builds suspension/brake kits for them as it seems like a genuine safety issue.



Oh man, took me *forever* to get E36 M3s out of my system!

The same gen BMW was absolutely a better handling car. The Lexus was a softer ride for sure, the key was to not drive them back to back if you wanted to fool yourself..lol. I had an E36 I loved as well,

Not sure which generation of Lexus we are talking about (haven`t read the rest of the postings) so I must conclude that it`s the more recent generations. Older Lexus` are actually gaining in popularity and to have a presence in the aftermarket. As we speak, I have a quite a few *performance* oriented parts waiting to go on my GS300. The hard part in looking for performance parts for anything besides the well know Japanese cars like Subies, Evo`s, GTR`s, etc, is that the valid google search results usually hide a few pages deep. Actually upgrading a car like my 2genGS300 is pretty much an art form, it`s not like I can strap *M-parts* to it and know that the car will still ride well and retain DD status. As I sit typing this, I contemplate the strategic positioning of poly bushings for the GS300 i.e., which bushings to keep factory spec and which bushings to upgrade for handling. For brakes, I have a set of Powerstop front pads (previously installed rears and what a difference), sway bar and steering rack bushings made a HUGE difference, lower caster arm poly bushings made the biggest improvement.....

The biggest thing with upgrading less popular Japanese cars is that we need to look to the drift scene for parts and then take the newly required knowledge to tailor the car into a well handling machine.

P.S.- There are so many aftermarket parts for all Japanese cars, BUT hardly anyone imports them to the US and most of the websites are in Japanese, and don`t get translated well. HAHA

Nothing beats a German car, unless it`s builtB)

 

[Surly]

I and "my family` had Japanese cars in the past, and BMW since about 2000/2001. I am currently driving the only BMW I`ve ever had under warranty. For quite a while (like 11 years until it was totalled by a red light runner) I had a 1998 E39 528i with sport suspension and MT (also with the M52 engine, before the changeover to the drive-by-wire M52TU) and my dad had an E39 540i with normal suspension, automatic. The "same" car, but couldn`t be more different. The V8 had quite a few "issues", but they were also well known issues that we could have seen coming. He had an extended warranty so he always waited for everything to break, got a tow, and got it fixed at the dealer, and showed me the invoices to justify the cost of the warranty. My approach was more like I saw the warning signs, could order an OEM part online for $180, and I fixed it on a Saturday morning in my garage before it broke.

I always categorized my car spending and time into maintenance (oil change, repack belt bearings, replace belts, brake fluid, brakes, battery, water pump, shocks), repair (oh no, something failed and I need to fix it) and restoration (replace seat cushion foam, replace a wearing bushing or ball joint). I had very little in the repair column. A $15 thermostat housing (twice), frayed wires in the wiring harness to the trunk (DIY for free), a crankshaft sensor that didn`t strand me I just got a CEL. That might be it.

In my experience at the time, I found that Japanese cars seem to "break" less, but were also less "durable". I like to corner, brake and accelerate - I like to drive. My current is my first automatic ever. I like to shift where it "sounds nice" and is in a rev band where there is some throttle response, I rev-match heel-toe downshift into every single turn etc.... I shift leaving time for the synchros to work, I warm up the oil before driving spirited, I don`t dump the clutch, and I roll onto the throttle (even if it`s to the floor) and squeeze on the brakes. Driving like this seems to be what German cars are made for, but I`ve found it might be "abuse" based on how Japanese cars, at the time anyways, are designed. I had more ball joints wear out, bushings etc.. on Japanese than German. When you hold a wishbone from each in your hand, the Japanese part was unsubstantial by comparison. (just my experience).

I won`t even get into how hard it was to find RWD, manual transmission and four doors without going German... I don`t plan on going back to FWD. Layer on things like the steering - heavy, precise and lots of feedback. The Japanese weren`t designing for that. This is something BMW is failing on lately (IMO) - they`re designing with `dead` steering requiring less effort, providing little feedback and often using racks that are too slow. It`s not exclusively the fault of electric assist steering - it can be VERY good. I think the design target has changed. My current BMW (F10 535) is not nearly as engaging as E39, E46 and E90.

That all being said, a friend has a 2009 Sienna with 240,000km or so and has done hardly anything to it - oil, batteries, brakes, fluids and filters. I`ve told her "be prepared". About a year ago was the first big bill - steering rack due to leak, broken front spring. Got a new rack and new front struts. It`s held up extremely well for her, but others with essentially the same vehicle haven`t had nearly the good luck she`s had so...

 

[PRND[S]]

The problem with VW and Audi engines that had timing chain problems wasn`t the chain itself, but the hydraulic tensioner. It had a small screen filter that could clog or fail, creating slack in the chain and allowing the chain to slip, usually during engine shutdown. Since they were interference engines, during the next engine start, boom...

That happened to my MK5 GTI. Came home, parked and went to bed, turned the key the next morning to go to the office and got a sound like someone was banging really small pots and pans together.

They revised the tensioner design and the problem was fixed. I know of no similar failures with current engines.

 

[dennis hiip]

This was redesigned in 2010 I think. Main reason I sold mine.

 

[dennis hiip]

For some reason the above post was cut short and I can`t edit. I was talking about Porsche 996 And the dreaded IMS failure caused by a sealed beating inside the crankcase that eventually sometimes lost the grease and lack of lubrication caused the engine to grenade.

 

[Dan]

Try doing an O2 sensor on an old 2.7t car, then do one on a later 3.2 model.

The 2.7t 02 sensors is something I can live with. A few google searches and you can figure out that you just need about 4 ft of socket extension and to go in from the opposite side. On a B5S4 its a 30 minute job that way, probably 6 hours book time.

;2123827`]The problem with VW and Audi engines that had timing chain problems wasn`t the chain itself, but the hydraulic tensioner. It had a small screen filter that could clog or fail, creating slack in the chain and allowing the chain to slip, usually during engine shutdown. Since they were interference engines, during the next engine start, boom..

I was talking about Porsche 996 And the dreaded IMS failure caused by a sealed beating inside the crankcase that eventually sometimes lost the grease and lack of lubrication caused the engine to grenade.

The above is the kind of stuff that keeps me from getting another german car. Random little things failing and boom, engine is done. Inexcusable. Engines are supposed to wear out, not blow up.

 

[Accumulator]

TheMeanGreen- Eh, I should`ve been more specific

We like the LS sedans (though I could fall in love with an old SC400 if a coupe were in the cards ). The GS like yours *is* supported, but the LS isn`t AFAIK.

And if such support *is* there, it`s so uncommon that I`d question the reliability/servicing...as I was just posting over at the Crown Vic site, if my wife`s a thousand miles from home (say...in a potentially hostile environment with two big, aggressively protective dogs to deal with) the car *CANNOT* break...and if it somehow does, I want her to be able to just call AAA, have `em take it to the nearest dealer, and just say "fix it by tomorrow whatever that costs".

I had figured a built LS400/430 would be swell; one guy had perf suspens parts "in development", but nothing of substance ever materialized.

I go back and forth about brakes like Stoptech. Sure, great...but back to that "wife a thousand miles from home and...". The last time I needed aftermarket brake parts they weren`t five minutes away.

 

[Oneheadlite]

The 2.7t 02 sensors is something I can live with. A few google searches and you can figure out that you just need about 4 ft of socket extension and to go in from the opposite side. On a B5S4 its a 30 minute job that way, probably 6 hours book time.

...
The above is the kind of stuff that keeps me from getting another german car. Random little things failing and boom, engine is done. Inexcusable. Engines are supposed to wear out, not blow up.

I get what you mean (extension trick), it was just a frame of reference for packaging differences - Needing to cheat vs not having to, and how that relates to general working space.

 

[Dan]

I get what you mean (extension trick), it was just a frame of reference for packaging differences - Needing to cheat vs not having to, and how that relates to general working space.

The refrence wasn`t missed, I was just weaving what yoi posted to make my point about hard to work on vs imploding on itself.

 

[Oneheadlite]

The refrence wasn`t missed, I was just weaving what yoi posted to make my point about hard to work on vs imploding on itself.

For sure. I`ll be honest - the stuff I`m seeing fixing these things, and hearing from friends in the industry completely bums me out. One of the BMW dealerships by us has 4 engine/trans tables for dropping the whole shootin match out of the bottom of the car. They`re all constantly tied up by cars getting engines, timing chains, head work, etc.

We just had an F10 Alpina B7 (Fancy 750i) here that needed a timing chain replaced due to stretch (Google - "Road and track N63" . For shame...). Book time here was 40+ hours. We`ve done a stack of mini timing chains.

Ironically, I`m actually really pro-German cars, though I think I`m actively painting a picture against them. :wacko:

Another way to look at it: For the 4 cylinder cars with chain issues (VW, Audi, or Mini), the dollars involved for replacement of the chain and related parts doesn`t fall that far from what an old Timing belt/water pump job that the old cars would have gotten. The more involved cars, it just hurts no matter what.

 

[Accumulator]

As we learned decades ago with the Audis we had then (and it`s even more true today), with some vehicles it`s utterly binary: you`re either in it for the Long Haul with zero regard for what that might add up to, or else you`re short-timing it and letting the big expenses be somebody else`s problem. Any middle ground is the domain of fools and dreamers....and those rare people who can DIY the tricky stuff (all respect to those folks).

BUT...do today`s cars engender the same kind of auto love affair that keep me putting five-figure repairs into the older cars? Everybody I know with a modern [anything] is either leasing or running a pre-owned until it`s ready to need the big repairs (at which point they`ll dump it). There`s no "I simply love everything about this car and nothing on earth would please me as much" like we feel about ours.

Heh heh, there`s a (very) short list of vehicles I`d really like to have, but even after selling off the ones I *can* live without, I`ve still accumulated too many already and I wouldn`t part with any of them, not to make room for *anything*. Unless that meteorite falls out of the sky and hits one....

 

[Desertnate]

As we learned decades ago with the Audis we had then (and it`s even more true today), with some vehicles it`s utterly binary: you`re either in it for the Long Haul with zero regard for what that might add up to, or else you`re short-timing it and letting the big expenses be somebody else`s problem. Any middle ground is the domain of fools and dreamers....and those rare people who can DIY the tricky stuff (all respect to those folks).

BUT...do today`s cars engender the same kind of auto love affair that keep me putting five-figure repairs into the older cars? Everybody I know with a modern [anything] is either leasing or running a pre-owned until it`s ready to need the big repairs (at which point they`ll dump it). There`s no "I simply love everything about this car and nothing on earth would please me as much" like we feel about ours.

Heh heh, there`s a (very) short list of vehicles I`d really like to have, but even after selling off the ones I *can* live without, I`ve still accumulated too many already and I wouldn`t part with any of them, not to make room for *anything*. Unless that meteorite falls out of the sky and hits one....

I`m sure income and mechanical ability have a lot to do with how long you hang on to something and the threshold for repair expense pain.

Personally, I`m low on both and it would have to take a really special car for me to hang on until the suffering point. I`ve only owned two that would make me think about irrational financial decisions, but not really suffer. One of which I still drive and the other was reluctantly sold due to a trans-oceanic move. Both are German by the way...

However, going forward, I wonder if my feelings will start to change. As cars continue to grow, get heavier, and isolate the driver from the act of actually driving, I may be more inclined to keep a vehicle that still offers that analog driving experience even if it humble vehicle of only respectable performance. It will offer an experience no longer available and end up forcing my hand to keep it far beyond when it makes sense.