RANT:My Love and Hate of German cars.

[Oneheadlite]

I think another really big factor that comes in with today’s cars regardless of brand is the huge push for better fuel efficiency. Engines today have so much more going on than days past - variable valve timing and valve lift, turbochargers, variable displacement oil pumps, cylinder shut down, direct fuel injection, etc. Add to that the fact that less weight = better fuel economy, so they’re making things as light as possible. Super lightweight oils are also becoming widespread, though I’m no engineer so I can’t speak to what effect that’ll have long term.

For whole vehicle reliability, seems like every car is coming equipped with tons of technology that used to be limited to top shelf luxury cars, so we’ll see how all that holds up as well.

 

[Nizmo]

I think another really big factor that comes in with today’s cars regardless of brand is the huge push for better fuel efficiency. Engines today have so much more going on than days past - variable valve timing and valve lift, turbochargers, variable displacement oil pumps, cylinder shut down, direct fuel injection, etc. Add to that the fact that less weight = better fuel economy, so they’re making things as light as possible. Super lightweight oils are also becoming widespread, though I’m no engineer so I can’t speak to what effect that’ll have long term.

I`m all for engine technology for economy, as long as they keep it simple. Take my GTI for example; 220ish HP at 270 TQ out of the tiny 2 litre turbocharged engine. But yet yesterday I was averaging 36-38mpg, in sport mode! Consistently is more economical than the Camry.

 

[Oneheadlite]

Don’t get me wrong - I’m 100% on board with how well the cars drive with all the tech.

It’s just a lot more moving parts. It’ll be interesting to see how all these turbocharged cars fare in the hands of civilians (vs back in the day when they tended to be more enthusiast cars) who view cars as appliances and likely won’t be terribly diligent about maintenance or letting the oil warm up a bit before rodding on it and really working the turbo; or letting it cool down from being molten hot after a highway blast before shutting the car off. I think most will have after run coolant pumps to circulate coolant through the turbo after shut down, but that oil just sits stagnant in there and gets cooked.

Sweet car by the way. My brother has a 16 TSi golf (he would have gone GTI if he could have swung it) and loves it. I’d say your engine’s pretty high tech-, as it’s got variable valve timing, variable intake valve lift(or intake runner length, or both), direct injection, and maybe more I’m not aware of.

Hopefully I’m not coming off as a doomsday-crier or big negative Nancy; I just see way too many neglected cars and have too much mechanical sympathy for them.

 

[dennis hiip]

German car fan here. For me, they have a unique something that I identify as soul. I have1992 MB 190E with 207k. I`ve had to replace most wear items in the 15 years that I`ve owned it. Sill drives like new. Also own a 2009 MB C350 that has been reliable and is my trip car. Super nice on the highway. Recently sold my Porsche 911. Loved it and miss it. I`ve had Toyota and Hyundia. Excellent but bland.

 

[Dan]

Don’t get me wrong - I’m 100% on board with how well the cars drive with all the tech.

It’s just a lot more moving parts. It’ll be interesting to see how all these turbocharged cars fare in the hands of civilians (vs back in the day when they tended to be more enthusiast cars) who view cars as appliances and likely won’t be terribly diligent about maintenance or letting the oil warm up a bit before rodding on it and really working the turbo; or letting it cool down from being molten hot after a highway blast before shutting the car off. I think most will have after run coolant pumps to circulate coolant through the turbo after shut down, but that oil just sits stagnant in there and gets cooked. .

Yep, in many cases the owners have no idea that the car even has a turbo. There are so many cars now with them, going to get interesting as the turbo fleet ages. People look at me like I`m crazy for letting my Turbo cool down for a few minutes after a long highway run. I see people pull right in off the freeway into a rest stop and off the car goes. Add in the fact that zddp has been removed from all modern oils and you have no protection when that oil burns up.

Direct injection is another technology that is forced on to the masses. You have carbon buildup issues and HPFP issues. Where oil changes could be somewhat neglected before, now intervals are longer and there isn`t much margin for error.

 

[Accumulator]

When we say that maintaining used cars gets expensive, I dunno...is it *really* more expensive than replacing them? Every now and then one of the Audis needs a bundle spent on it, but with a new A8/S8 (which we wouldn`t like as well) costing well into 6 figures we can swallow a lot of $5K or even $10K service bills and never come close to spending the same amount of money. And $5-10K at a time is a lot easier to swallow than one BIG check all at once.

Our dilemma is parts availability; Audi just doesn`t support their vehicles the way some makers do. If anybody ever cracks a head/tail light on the `93 it`s a paperweight. Even stuff for the A8 is getting really hard to find; we keep hearing "found the last one at a dealership in [wherever], hope you never need another.."

Yep, in many cases the owners have no idea that the car even has a turbo. .

Gee, are people really that clueless about something they rely upon go get around?!?

People look at me like I`m crazy for letting my Turbo cool down for a few minutes after a long highway run. I see people pull right in off the freeway into a rest stop and off the car goes...

Same comment...Accumulatortette had a few turbos and it`s not like I had to tell her anything about how to treat them.

 

[Dan]

When we say that maintaining used cars gets expensive, I dunno...is it *really* more expensive than replacing them? Every now and then one of the Audis needs a bundle spent on it, but with a new A8/S8 (which we wouldn`t like as well) costing well into 6 figures we can swallow a lot of $5K or even $10K service bills and never come close to spending the same amount of money. And $5-10K at a time is a lot easier to swallow than one BIG check all at once.

Funny how we see the same thing in a different light. To me anything other than regular maintenance on a car with under 100k miles is unreasonable. The manufacturers tout "no tuneups needed for 100k" so yes, its reasonable for me to expect that major issues won`t occur in that time frame. And with Toyotas and Hondas (Lexus and Acura as well) that my family has owned, that has been true, NONE of them have needed anything other than scheduled maintenance until they cross well north of 100k. Two exceptions were an 80`s Celica and Tercel, both had AC issues, which of course was with the dealer installed AC. Can`t fault Toyota for that. FWIW, we`re looking at 12 cars and almost a million miles (wow can`t believe we drive that much!).

We had a 92 Saab 9000 that we spent almost as much on maintenance as we did on the original purchase price. Left my dad stranded 3 times I think. This is in 11 years of ownership.

 

[Nizmo]

Don’t get me wrong - I’m 100% on board with how well the cars drive with all the tech.

It’s just a lot more moving parts. It’ll be interesting to see how all these turbocharged cars fare in the hands of civilians (vs back in the day when they tended to be more enthusiast cars) who view cars as appliances and likely won’t be terribly diligent about maintenance or letting the oil warm up a bit before rodding on it and really working the turbo; or letting it cool down from being molten hot after a highway blast before shutting the car off. I think most will have after run coolant pumps to circulate coolant through the turbo after shut down, but that oil just sits stagnant in there and gets cooked.

Sweet car by the way. My brother has a 16 TSi golf (he would have gone GTI if he could have swung it) and loves it. I’d say your engine’s pretty high tech-, as it’s got variable valve timing, variable intake valve lift(or intake runner length, or both), direct injection, and maybe more I’m not aware of.

Hopefully I’m not coming off as a doomsday-crier or big negative Nancy; I just see way too many neglected cars and have too much mechanical sympathy for them.

Oh I`m, super picky about maintenance. First oil change was at 1400 miles and the next is coming at 5K. Air and fuel filters at 10K.

BTW, it really likes E85/93 blend...

 

[Swanicyouth]

I`ll start this response - the way I start a lot of responses:

I dunno man.

I have a 2008 BMW M Roadster I`ve owned since 2010. It has 60k on it and has yet to need even a light bulb.

I`ve owned BMWs before this car and they`ve been very reliable.

I don`t daily drive a BMW because they don`t make a truck & I need that for the winter here.

 

[Oneheadlite]

I need to remind myself that by the nature of my profession, I see the worst side cars.

Accumulator: Yes, some people really are that clueless. I kinda do-it-all at the shop, so I answer the phone and take appointments when the guys need help up front. I’ve had phone calls where the people calling literally don’t even know how many cylinder engine is in their car... You also bring up a great point that there are costs to both approaches- Just buying a new one, or repairing and keeping your “old” one. We’ve got a customer that in a short number of years has spent $20k plus on his 2002 745. He’s done the math both ways and is comfortable that it’s the right path for him. If his car was more Accumulator level condition, I wouldn’t second guess him, but...

Going the other way though, Not only do you have the high cost of entering ownership buying new, but then you have higher insurance and license plate fees to go with it.

 

[Accumulator]

To me anything other than regular maintenance on a car with under 100k miles is unreasonable..

I bet that "what we`re used to" factors in along with the love of the individual vehicle, get used to stuff needing fixed and it`s "normal", don`t have such worries and *that* is normal. Even one of my two Hondas had serious problems all the time!

But at least there` s never anything that renders a vehicle INOP (probably because of our maintenance), just piddly stuff...or at least I catch the biggies before they get terminal.

Eh, with us being retired, it can take a long time to rack up miles these days so the whole "experience for the mileage" thing doesn`t really apply to us...consider that despite my newest vehicle being an `08, half of `em have under ~22K.

You mentioned how well Lexus has been for you- my wife and I both REALLY liked the original LS400 and then the LS30, but driving them was simply shocking...so, uhm....not Sport Sedan enough... that we quickly realized neither of us could drive such stuff. Had they offered a Hi-Po suspension/brake setup we would`ve loved `em.

.. Yes, some people really are that clueless...

I knee-jerk all snarky and think [crap] about people being "too dumb to live"...I just can`t imagine somebody relying on, and assuming the responsibility for, something as serious as a motor vehicle while being that ignorant about it. I mean, sheesh...when I met my wife she was far from a Car Person as I can imagine, but she *KNEW* everything she needed to know about her trusty (and RUSTY) ol` Mazda GLC and its maintenance was 100% covered. I mean, sheesh..it`s like appliances and [tools] and everything else, you just gotta know from your kit.

Maybe that 745 owner is in the same boat we are- likes that particular vehicle/model and they just aren`t making the exact same thing any more so that one has to last forever.

And yeah, over time the maintenance cost can easily exceed the original (new vehicle) price...I`m sure I`ve spent more than $35K on the Jag`s maintenance/etc. But with 6-figure cars getting commonplace that might change. I can`t imagine spending the cost of a new S8 on maintaining *anything*.

I don`t daily drive a BMW because they don`t make a truck & I need that for the winter here.

Heh heh, at least you don`t have one of their SUVs/CUVs...in my area those are the official vehicles of [jerks].

 

[The Driver]

If you use OE parts, maintain everything ON SCHEDULE and change ALL fluids before the end of thier life cycle. You will almost never run into an issue. I have 5 European cars and have had ZERO major issues over the years. Parts on some have failed, but within the correct parameters. Coilpacks at 80K, Alternators around 100k etc. I`ve maintained them all pretty much flawlessly and again never had a major issue or been stranded.

06 Volvo S60R 2.5T - 114k miles
08 Audi B7 Avant 2.0T - 84K miles
11 Bmw 328 Xi - 55k miles
12 Merecedes C300 3.0 - 23k miles
14 Audi C7 S7 40T - 22K miles

 

[jrock645]

My thing with the German cars is having the nerve to sell a 4cylinder for upwards of $50k. That’s just insane. Kicking ideas around on my next car and really like a couple of German models, but absolutely will not pay that kind of money for a 4 banger- I don’t care how turbo’d out it is- and the 6’s get to be out of my price range.

 

[The Driver]

Your paying for engineering, saftey, mpg and european driving experience. Imo, never buy a european new always cpo or used outright. Having friends in autobody I can 100% say european cars ARE SAFER. You might walk out of a crash from pretty much any car today but there will be a difference in the condition you exit and what ill effects are caused down the road.

 

[Accumulator]

The Driver- I dunno...had I not bought the A8/S8 new they`d probably not be in the same condition they`re in now. "It`s only original once" and all that, given the lengths I go to keeping `em that way. I`ve bought plenty of vehicles that were *almost* showroom new, but not one of them was as nice as it would`ve been had I owned it from the jump and I`ve never been able to *get* anything that nice either.

But for *practical* or economic reasons, I agree completely!

Concerning crashworthiness- Having been in a whole lotta crashes (most of `em were under controlled conditions/during training, but I`ve had a few near-checkout ones IRL too with full-size vehicles totaled out from under me), I prefer a body-on-frame when things go seriously sideways. Besides liking the B-o-F for the ability to stay (somewhat) mobile and the protection to the occupants, they`ve *never* been able to fix a seriously damaged unibody vehicle to my satisfaction; once certain things get tweaked the vehicle just never feels the same even when the specs say it should.

jrock645- It seems that your "won`t pay that for a 4" isn`t all that uncommon, especially among those who value engine sounds being a certain way. While I generally prefer a large engine with at least 8 cylinders, I *really* only care how it drives (throttle response, midrange torque, etc.).

 

[Dan]

jrock645- It seems that your "won`t pay that for a 4" isn`t all that uncommon, especially among those who value engine sounds being a certain way. While I generally prefer a large engine with at least 8 cylinders, I *really* only care how it drives (throttle response, midrange torque, etc.).

Don`t forget durability too. There are a lot of 4`s running around now pushing well over 100hp/liter. Whoever is in the turbo and cylinder head rebuilding business is going to be doing well for themselves.

I love how a turbo`d car drives, the boost surge is awesome (well, almost as awesome as pure electric) but they do nothing for reliability.

 

[Accumulator]

Dan- Heh heh, my pal Bob (of the old Jag MKII) is just like you and has kept a 911 Turbo of some kind in his garage since forever. *I* OTOH, utterly despise the "turbo surge" (let alone turbo LAG), preferring a flat (and fat) torque curve where it`s very linear. Different strokes and all that...

Guess that "boosted to within an inch of its life" thing may catch up to `em...wonder if they`re durable *IF* treated/maintained right.

 

[jrock645]

The Driver- I dunno...had I not bought the A8/S8 new they`d probably not be in the same condition they`re in now. "It`s only original once" and all that, given the lengths I go to keeping `em that way. I`ve bought plenty of vehicles that were *almost* showroom new, but not one of them was as nice as it would`ve been had I owned it from the jump and I`ve never been able to *get* anything that nice either.

But for *practical* or economic reasons, I agree completely!

Concerning crashworthiness- Having been in a whole lotta crashes (most of `em were under controlled conditions/during training, but I`ve had a few near-checkout ones IRL too with full-size vehicles totaled out from under me), I prefer a body-on-frame when things go seriously sideways. Besides liking the B-o-F for the ability to stay (somewhat) mobile and the protection to the occupants, they`ve *never* been able to fix a seriously damaged unibody vehicle to my satisfaction; once certain things get tweaked the vehicle just never feels the same even when the specs say it should.

jrock645- It seems that your "won`t pay that for a 4" isn`t all that uncommon, especially among those who value engine sounds being a certain way. While I generally prefer a large engine with at least 8 cylinders, I *really* only care how it drives (throttle response, midrange torque, etc.).

Its not about HP for me. Next car will be a 6 because theyre so much smoother than a 4. Smoother ride, smoother acceleration. And they don’t whine and grind when you have to punch it, they just purr along. Sadly, my options are dwindling as more and more car makers switch to turbo 4’s and drop 6’s to boost their MPG statistics.

 

[Dan]

Dan- Heh heh, my pal Bob (of the old Jag MKII) is just like you and has kept a 911 Turbo of some kind in his garage since forever. *I* OTOH, utterly despise the "turbo surge" (let alone turbo LAG), preferring a flat (and fat) torque curve where it`s very linear. Different strokes and all that...

Guess that "boosted to within an inch of its life" thing may catch up to `em...wonder if they`re durable *IF* treated/maintained right.

I know your disdain for a lack of responsiveness! Your DBW threads for one! Have you driven any pure electric cars yet? Very fun and ZERO lag. I have a Leaf, which is bottom of the barrel, but it is a hoot to drive because it has gobs of torque and no lag whatsoever.

 

[Accumulator]

Dan- No, I *haven`t* driven an electric. I agree that they have a lot to offer and I`m absolutely *NOT* in the "internal combustion only" camp. But with all the electric cars featuring...technology...that I won`t have, I doubt that an electric is in my future. Heh heh, the `08 Crown Vic is quite possibly ("probably" even?) the latest model-year vehicle we`ll ever own...

Oh, and I also agree with you on the smoothness issue (my Jag`s V12..).

Heh heh, sounds like I made an impression with my DBW tales of woe! At least the DBW in the Crown Vic is OK...but we`ll see how it is when (heh heh, not "if" ) I finally soup it up...which gives me another reason to keep putting that off (IME nothing messes up a reliable stock vehicle quite like good intentions and an open checkbook ).