Weasel Wording of the Decade (GM Chapt. 11)

[Setec Astronomy]

He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.



PS I`d like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I`m all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don`t recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it`s kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn`t have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don`t rememer that gas used to have lead in it ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.

[Lenny]

He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.



PS I`d like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I`m all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don`t recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it`s kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn`t have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don`t rememer that gas used to have lead in it ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.

When I called on the power generation industry, what drove me crazy was that they thought nothing of wasting electricity, because, don`t ya know, they make tons of it.



I question the benefits of hybrids, because of several factors. One, whether we`re talking about lithium ion or nickle metal hydride batteries, we`re talking about swapping foreign oil for either foreign batteries, or foreign rare metals.



Secondly, even if economies of scale bring the costs down for hybrids, you`re still increasing the complexity of the car or truck, with extra components over a regular gas or diesel vehicle. Hybrid advocates can`t seem to grasp the concept that you`re using extra energy to make the electric motor, the battery, and the high voltage wiring (which itself is a huge extra component). Then you`re using more energy shipping it to the assembly plant. Then you`re using extra energy in the plant, in extra material handling and robotics to handle integrating those parts into the assembly process.



Environmental benefits, to society, are also highly questionable when the toxic emissions and hazardous waste production of the battery and high voltage wiring is taken into consideration.

[HappyWax]

I am not an expert and I don`t drive a Hybrid -so don`t lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.



In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.



Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Setec Astronomy]

I`m sorry, my mother`s (non-hybrid) Buick, which was built in Canada, has wheels from China, and suspension arms from South Korea, and who knows how many other imported parts. How about for her next car, if it`s a hybrid, we make the wheels and suspension arms here, so we can make up for the foreign metals in the battery? For that matter, why don`t we make the batteries here? Let`s take one of those idled GM plants and make batteries for the Volt.



I guess you can make an argument for or against anything. Sure, if a hybrid vehicle has more parts, it`s going to (perhaps) take more energy to manufacture it. But any car has parts...which take energy to manufacture, so why don`t we stop making new cars? And just fix the old ones? Or stop driving? That would save TONS of energy.



I notice you didn`t argue that my high-efficiency air conditioners required more parts or more energy to produce, negating their benefit. And I bet it`s going to take a lot of energy (and money) to build a nuclear power plant, especially today. So I guess if it takes 10 or 20 or 30 years to make a profit, it`s not worth doing? Or why bother buying a house...it`s going to take SO long to pay off that mortgage...

See? You can make an argument for or against anything. I guess GM`s description of their current financial situation was fine...they were just making an argument FOR it.

[Setec Astronomy]

I am not an expert and I don`t drive a Hybrid -so don`t lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.



In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.

And so are the knee-jerk reactions in the other direction. Aren`t many vehicle purchases statements? Like "I have gobs of money, so I bought this vehicle to show everyone" or "I put this fart-can exhaust on my car to prove how much I like to get pulled over" or "I have a penis of inferior size, so I bought this vehicle to compensate".



How come only a Prius gets held to this litmus standard? I don`t hear anybody complaining about how their new HD tv isn`t really more environmentally friendly than their old CRT that used twice as much electricity because of blah blah blah or how people shouldn`t get new cell phones because the batteries (not to mention the phones) come from a foreign country...I`d be willing to bet that the amount of cell phone and other mobile device (PDA, laptop, bluetooth) batteries far exceeds what is manufactured/disposed of for hybrid cars right now...where is the hue and cry over that?

[HappyWax]

Setec,



Len A questions the benefits of Hybrids - saying they may not be environmentally all they are cracked up to be -Which may or may not be true.

I am saying that many people who buy Hybrids may know this, and will buy a hybrid regardless because --->Buying A Hybrid it is supporting (through $$) the idea of progressive thinking and manufacturing.

[Setec Astronomy]

Len A questions the benefits of Hybrids - saying they may not be environmentally all they are cracked up to be -Which may or may not be true.

I am saying that many people who buy Hybrids may know this, and will buy a hybrid regardless because --->Buying A Hybrid it is supporting (through $$) the idea of progressive thinking and manufacturing.

Sorry if I jumped down your throat. As I think I`ve said before in other threads, the "hybrid" idea goes back to the `73 oil embargo...but in those pre-historic days for electronics, a mechanical solution to braking-energy recovery was proposed...flywheels. From an engineering standpoint, it makes great sense...just like recovering waste heat from a power plant.



What I support is making things in this country. To paraphrase Ross Perot from his `92 presidential campaign, the way out of our economic troubles is to have robust manufacturing in this country, to put people to work at good wages...who will then PAY TAXES instead of being on unemployment. And the people who have the jobs at REALLY good wages, should definitely pay their share of taxes. I saw Warren Buffet on TV saying that according to the IRS, the top 100 earners from the most recent year that statistics were available, paid 17% average tax--bullhockey! That includes that hedge fund guy that made $3 billion--I`m sure he could afford a little more in taxes to help out Len A.



So the car companies go bankrupt, so we can buy an even larger percentage of imported cars, and all those dealer mechanics and salesmen and admin people can go work at Wal-Mart and Target part time at half their pay.



Whatever.

[imported_Jakerooni]

Here`s a question.. (because I randomly think like this) but for sake of thinking outside the norm if there`s a succesful push to get hybrid`s out and about (remember GM had a pure electric car years ago and it was sliently killed off with no reasoning behind it) But how would the government then recoupe the billions and billions of lost revenue from the always rising gasoline tax if no one is using it anymore (or a lot less of it as would be the desired result would be) After just handing out trillions of dollars I don`t think for a second that any car manufacture or the government is ready to kill off that cash cow no matter what they want to preach on TV and other media streams. That`s just entirely way to much money to simply let go of. I mean we really already have the technology in place to never have to use another drop of gasoline for anything.... There just has to be a reason why we don`t use it

[Lenny]

I am not an expert and I don`t drive a Hybrid -so don`t lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.



In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.



Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Two of my neighbors bought Priuses because of the mileage ratings. The problem is that the higher price they paid for a Prius last year, meant they need to keep the cars a year to two years longer just to break even. A couple of grand price difference is an awful lot of gasoline, even at $4 a gallon. I know there`s some people who buy hybrids as a political statement, but I don`t know any. All the hybrid owners I know did it because they thought they were saving money.

[Lenny]

Sorry if I jumped down your throat. As I think I`ve said before in other threads, the "hybrid" idea goes back to the `73 oil embargo...but in those pre-historic days for electronics, a mechanical solution to braking-energy recovery was proposed...flywheels. From an engineering standpoint, it makes great sense...just like recovering waste heat from a power plant.



What I support is making things in this country. To paraphrase Ross Perot from his `92 presidential campaign, the way out of our economic troubles is to have robust manufacturing in this country, to put people to work at good wages...who will then PAY TAXES instead of being on unemployment. And the people who have the jobs at REALLY good wages, should definitely pay their share of taxes. I saw Warren Buffet on TV saying that according to the IRS, the top 100 earners from the most recent year that statistics were available, paid 17% average tax--bullhockey! That includes that hedge fund guy that made $3 billion--I`m sure he could afford a little more in taxes to help out Len A.



So the car companies go bankrupt, so we can buy an even larger percentage of imported cars, and all those dealer mechanics and salesmen and admin people can go work at Wal-Mart and Target part time at half their pay.



Whatever.

Man, I couldn`t agree with you more.

[SpoiledMan]

Len A, could you please make one more post. You`re count is creepy! lol

[Lenny]

Len A, could you please make one more post. You`re count is creepy! lol

Ouch! :shocked



That should take care of it!!

[Junebug]

Couple of thoughts- oil - we haven`t built a new refinery in over 30 years, we have 50 "designer"blends of gas that keep production from running at peak effienency, we have plenty of oil and natural gas - but can`t drill - all cause of the wacko enviro`s and their lawyers/PR/ liberal lame stream media. Don`t get me started on that whole global warming scam, there are so many scientist coming out AGAINST that now that it`s even fading from the press.



Cars - the American car companies where doomed from the 50`s, you can`t pay crazy wages to guys with a high school education to screw in a couple of taillights and then give him 85% of his pay to read newspapers. No company can afford that. The parasites at the UAW finally drained the last drop, good job boys, now maybe you can come down south, make a third of your old pay and piss & moan how grand the old union was, till some redneck like me slaps your teeth down your throat and kicks your sorry butt 10 feet northward. I hate it! My teenage years were all about Z-28`s and SS396 Chevelles - great cars and now - my kids think a Chevy is only a truck or vette. Good job everybody, thank you.



Hybrid cars- why bother when VW and MB have clean diesels that are simpler, great on gas, and last longer than gas engines (and we don`t have any numbers on how long these fancy hybrid systems will last) all we need is more capacity at the refineries - see above- and you have cheap fuel.

[Setec Astronomy]

Hybrid cars- why bother when VW and MB have clean diesels that are simpler, great on gas, and last longer than gas engines (and we don`t have any numbers on how long these fancy hybrid systems will last) all we need is more capacity at the refineries - see above- and you have cheap fuel.

I`d agree...except I have a high-efficiency furnace in my house. What makes it high efficiency? It captures a lot more of the waste heat that would normally go out the flue. Is it more complicated, yes. Have I had a problem with it? Yes, once in 9 years I got a leaf sucked in the inlet. Was it more expensive? Yes, but I got a rebate from the gas company which largely offset the cost increase. And it burns at 93% regardless of the cost of the fuel.



A lot of you guys do your cooking outside on the grill during the summer, so as not to heat up the kitchen and make the house hot, or so as not to incur as much on your electricity bill from running the A/C to remove that heat. So my car is throwing off all kinds of heat everytime I apply the brakes, why am I a whacko for thinking it`s a good idea to recover that energy as electricity instead of dissipating it as heat? Are you guys whackos for cooking outside? Be men and take the heat in the kitchen.



I shopped around for a few years before I got my HE furnace. I had one HVAC guy tell me they don`t install them, there are too many problems. But ultimately this has become the norm, the problems are a thing of the past. And so will be with hybrid vehicles. I don`t hear any of you guys `````ing anymore that cars don`t make any power because of emissions controls, cars are faster (and cleaner) then they have ever been (or as fast).

[Lenny]

Couple of thoughts- oil - we haven`t built a new refinery in over 30 years, we have 50 "designer"blends of gas that keep production from running at peak effienency, we have plenty of oil and natural gas - but can`t drill - all cause of the wacko enviro`s and their lawyers/PR/ liberal lame stream media. Don`t get me started on that whole global warming scam, there are so many scientist coming out AGAINST that now that it`s even fading from the press.



Cars - the American car companies where doomed from the 50`s, you can`t pay crazy wages to guys with a high school education to screw in a couple of taillights and then give him 85% of his pay to read newspapers. No company can afford that. The parasites at the UAW finally drained the last drop, good job boys, now maybe you can come down south, make a third of your old pay and piss & moan how grand the old union was, till some redneck like me slaps your teeth down your throat and kicks your sorry butt 10 feet northward. I hate it! My teenage years were all about Z-28`s and SS396 Chevelles - great cars and now - my kids think a Chevy is only a truck or vette. Good job everybody, thank you.



Hybrid cars- why bother when VW and MB have clean diesels that are simpler, great on gas, and last longer than gas engines (and we don`t have any numbers on how long these fancy hybrid systems will last) all we need is more capacity at the refineries - see above- and you have cheap fuel.

OK, first of all, without wanting to get into a debate, the Detroit car makers pay structure is not that different from the transplants - $25 an hour plus benefits from the time an employee has gone past their probationary period, which , in about all cases now in North America, is three years on attaining full wages. I know you can find stuff on line that references $70 - that`s, one, grossly outdated, even if it`s from early last year - the contracts have been reopened, get this, twice already, and pay structures have changed downward. What hurt the Detroit car makers wasn`t weekly pay - it was the work rules, the idiotic jobs banks (that`s gone now), and the fact that all three car makers still have thousands of retirees on teh books from a time when they made all their own parts in house. Even if they spun those divisions off, Delphi in GM`s case, and Visteon in Ford`s case, they are still stuck with all the retirees, hourly and salaried alike, that retired BEFORE those division were spun off.



The other thing hurting the Detroit car makers is retiree costs. Health care comes off their books effective January 1, 2010. That`s written in stone - the UAW VEBA (Voluntary Health Benefits Association) takes over hourly retiree health care costs, and that`s that. Salaried retirees got their health care benefits cut down to a stipend last years, and that`s done. In the case of new hires, no new salaried employee hired after January 1, 2000 has either a pension or retiree health care. They are 401K only. Any new hourly employee hired after November, 2007 has no pension, or retiree health care (no VEBA participation either). That`s done.



Second, the press made a big deal about the transplants making, with benefits, $20 an hour less than the Detroit car makers. Too bad the newspaper web sites charge for an article older than a month, because there were several from early last December that had Toyota and Honda execs complaining that the congressman and senators making those claims had it wrong, and they shouldn`t have been making those claims as if they were Gospel, because Toyota and Honda had several plants where the assembly line workers were making more than their UAW counterparts, because of big profit sharing bonuses. Moreover, all the transplants have had their labor costs go up, sharply, in the last three to five months, because they all laid off their lower paid contract and temp employees. Think about it. If the press kept quoting an hourly labor cost of $50 an hour, including benefits, and they laid off all, every single one, of their $15 and hour plus lower benefit employees, what did that do to their average labor cost?? Why do you think all the car makers, including the transplants, are losing billions of dollars right now? Not only that, but two months ago, the Wall Street Journal and Automotive News reported that Toyota`s monthly cash burn was exceeding that of GM`s.



No one is making money in the car business right now.



On the comment on new refineries and new drilling - Kuwait`s oil minister said yesterday that production won`t increase until oil gets back above $100 a barrel. The oil companies here won`t drill or expand refining capacity either until oil prices go back - up enough to choke off a recovery. Great. Most of the new drilling projects went on hold when oil prices dropped last September.