Why?

I

imported_Automania1

New member
Why do detailer's here speak disparagingly of big production detail shops, auction shops, car washes and dealer shops or it seems that way to me. Have a few bad shops tainted the entire industry?



Why do I get the feeling there is some kind of snobbery going here we vs them... The "we" meaning we are better.. Wouldn't better depend on what the consumer wanted or is willing to accept?
 
It's a stereotype--though there will be good quality work coming out of some of the aforementioned places, my take is typically these places are more about getting volume done so it's more about fillers than quality true corrections and having the car's paint condition in mind.



My girlfriend just bought a brand new car and after the past couple rain storms it looks like there are buffer trails on the car which i'll have to address..just saying...
 
Exactly what Alex said. Those shops are often focused on doing the most amount of work in the least amount of time. They often will use products that make the car look great as it leaves the shop but once the fillers are washed out it looks pretty much the same as it did before.



There are a lot of customers who are content with this. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of customers who are not content with this but it is all they know. It is that type of "smoke and mirrors" type of work that gives the whole detailing industry a negative image. If they would simply be honest about what they do it wouldn't pose the problem it does. Fortunately there are people who, after being disappointed by the work done at those volume shops or dealers, find a true autopian detailer and finally see the light and lead others to the good side.
 
to add to that it doesn't help that some of these shops charge close to nothing because well...it's all going to be covered up anyways so it's a quick in and out deal...but when the owner realizes their car just got trashed and we quote something much higher suddenly we're the highway robbers
 
Nth Degree said:
Exactly what Alex said. Those shops are often focused on doing the most amount of work in the least amount of time. They often will use products that make the car look great as it leaves the shop but once the fillers are washed out it looks pretty much the same as it did before.



There are a lot of customers who are content with this. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of customers who are not content with this but it is all they know. It is that type of "smoke and mirrors" type of work that gives the whole detailing industry a negative image. If they would simply be honest about what they do it wouldn't pose the problem it does. Fortunately there are people who, after being disappointed by the work done at those volume shops or dealers, find a true autopian detailer and finally see the light and lead others to the good side.
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Would you agree the vast majority of consumers do not engage nor are they interested in what is involved in detailing until the get poor results... In order words they come in to a shop say I want to detail my car, I am in a hurry, they even dictate want they want done like I want to buff and wax my car and these shops oblige them "do what they want" ?



Do you also think many of these shop do not know many of the products they use have fillers, the supplier has never informed them nor do they educate them about what the products do?
 
I have a low opinion of *anybody*, in any business, who's lousy at what they do professionally. And a lot of people doing this stuff *are* lousy at it.



There's simply no reasonable excuse for hacking up vehicles. Can't do thorough correction? OK, but don't mess it up and make things worse. "First do no harm" and all that.



As a kid, I worked in a bodyshop, and in new-car prep at a local dealership, and arguments that "they can't do better" simply don't wash with me; I sure never hacked up anything. I didn't care what the customers expected, I didn't care with what the Dept. head expected- I cared about doing the job properly, as I believe every "Professional" should do...simple as that.



Part of doing any job properly involves understanding what you're doing, and the tools/materials you're working with. Not educating one's self about the job is inexcusable IMO.



And sometimes, doing a job properly means explaining to a customer that "it doesn't work that way" or saying "that's not feasible, I won't do that".



Guess I just hold detailers to the same standards as any other Professionals.
 
The closest analgy I can think of is the difference between a mcdonalds and a fine dining restaurant. Most patrons of fast food don't really care whats in it as long as it's "a burger" and the line cooks surely don't really care either as long as the foods out...that is until someone gets sick



a find dining restaurant will explain what your meal entails and you know exactly what you're getting



so if you're a line cook you shouldn't call yourself a chef because it's insulting to the trade. I think many would agree that the same goes for detailing; if you're a hack then you shouldn't be calling yourself a detailer or at least claim to be an expert (I remember a conversation way back when with the difference between a professional and an expert)
 
Because most high volume shops do more damage than good IMO. They still use a wool pad on the rotary with a filler heavy polish spinning at 3000rpm's and flying over everything, trim and all. I've honestly never set foot in a high volume shop that does "good" work, and I spent over 13 years doing high volume. It's not like I/we didn't know back then that the work was crap, but we were given tool A, Pad B, and Polish C and 2-4 hrs to do a full detail (exterior, interior, engine, trunk...). The pads were always used way beyond their life expectancy but the shop owners were stingy and it was like pulling teeth to get them to pay for new ones. Extractors? Heck, most the shops I was at they had us pressure washing the carpets!



Times have changed a bit since then and with new tools like the Flex 3401 and things like Meguiar's MF system, I do think high volume shops can turn good (hologram free) work in a relatively short amount of time, questions is WILL they.



Gina, I know you have lots of state of the art equipment and have seen some of the great interior work your shop has turned out, but I think shops like yours are very rare, at least in my area they are. ;)



Mind if I ask what your employees are using to polish the vehicles with (tools/pads)
 
Automania said:
Would you agree the vast majority of consumers do not engage nor are they interested in what is involved in detailing until the get poor results... In order words they come in to a shop say I want to detail my car, I am in a hurry, they even dictate want they want done like I want to buff and wax my car and these shops oblige them "do what they want" ?



Do you also think many of these shop do not know many of the products they use have fillers, the supplier has never informed them nor do they educate them about what the products do?
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I would absolutely agree with that. And it's not just in detailing. Auto mechanics have a similar problem when customers want "x" fixed but don't want to pay to have other, related issues fixed. Then the customer complains that the problem still exists.



Part of the problem is that ~95% of the population doesn't care. Of the remaining ~5% only 1/5 even have a basic understanding of the difference. That leaves only ~1% to try to educate the others.



Lack of knowledge/education in the volume shops is absolutely a contributing factor. Business owners, in an attempt to keep costs down and profits high, hire cheap labor. Those employees care less about the cars they are working on than the paycheck they receive. The more cars they can do in a week, the more money they may stand to make. They have been trained by the person above them who was trained the same way. I have heard of a lot of shops where the owners place products into unmarked containers to prevent the employees from knowing what products they are using. This to prevent the employees from learning enough to branch out on their own. Hmm. Who else see the problem there?



My dad was an auto mechanic. I can't thank him for a lot, but I can thank him for the business sense he taught me: You can provide a common/inferior product or service and try to compete with all the others doing the same thing or you can provide a quality/superior product or service that people truly want. The former is usually only successful if you have the lowest price. The latter will make you stand out and attract customers who appreciate the difference and will pay willingly for it.
 
Alexshimshimhae said:
The closest analgy I can think of is the difference between a mcdonalds and a fine dining restaurant. Most patrons of fast food don't really care whats in it as long as it's "a burger" and the line cooks surely don't really care either as long as the foods out...
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Heh heh, I even hold fast-food places to a decent standard! No, I'm not just bitchy, I make a point of complimenting fast-food employees who do a good job and I've yet to have one *not* be appreciative.



My local McD's is actually doing better recently, and coincidentally enough this is after I contacted the franchise holder about some, uhm...matters both good and bad related to his employees' performance. Only took me moment what with online contact info.
 
To add to my other post, clearly there is a HUGE market for high volume detailing, and there are tons of people that just want a shiny car that don't really care about swirls and scratches. However, I do NOT believe that gives shops the right to fly over the cars with a rotary, instill holograms, and burning edges and trim. If you want to do high volume then more power to you, but do it right! There are lots of tools, pads, and polishes out there that can polish an average sized car, removing light swirls and oxidation safely and hologram free, while still adding protection, in under 60 minutes.
 
One should note however, many detailer's WILL tell their clients-going with A will make your car shiny--but understand that it will not REMOVE any of these swirls but it is cheaper. Option B will remove the swirls but it will cost you more and will still require you to take part in some sort of upkeep/maintenance ...



Now the part in the argument that is wrong no matter what is as Accum says at the very least do no harm. If what's agreed upon is just clean the paint and cover up existing swirls; what can you do? that's what the client wants--don't compound the issue by unnecessarily adding your own.



now if they're paying you to remove swirls and you're hacking it--then shame on you



I think many of the volume places kind of leave out the fact that they don't remove swirls...they simply state that the car will look like new (not for how long xD)
 
Automania said:
Would you agree the vast majority of consumers do not engage nor are they interested in what is involved in detailing until the get poor results... In order words they come in to a shop say I want to detail my car, I am in a hurry, they even dictate want they want done like I want to buff and wax my car and these shops oblige them "do what they want" ?



Do you also think many of these shop do not know many of the products they use have fillers, the supplier has never informed them nor do they educate them about what the products do?
Click to expand...



I would say that on average, consumers don't take much interest in what is being done until after they've been burned (figuratively and/or literally) by a hack. Just look at the number of "detailers messed up my car, now what?" threads we have here. And by the same token, the volume shops who "do what the consumer thinks they want" are, at least in my opinion, operating unethically by not educating the customer that a proper job takes time, etc. and calibrating expectations to match outcomes.



As for the shops not knowing the products have fillers, that they're using poor technique, etc.... I say that's a cop out. Any business owner/operator worth their salt is going to do some research and familiarize themselves with the products and equipment they're using. In this day and age the information is readily available, so there's no excuse not to use it.
 
Alexshimshimhae said:
One should note however, many detailer's WILL tell their clients-going with A will make your car shiny--but understand that it will not REMOVE any of these swirls but it is cheaper. Option B will remove the swirls but it will cost you more and will still require you to take part in some sort of upkeep/maintenance ...



Now the part in the argument that is wrong no matter what is as Accum says at the very least do no harm. If what's agreed upon is just clean the paint and cover up existing swirls; what can you do? that's what the client wants--don't compound the issue by unnecessarily adding your own.



now if they're paying you to remove swirls and you're hacking it--then shame on you



I think many of the volume places kind of leave out the fact that they don't remove swirls...they simply state that the car will look like new (not for how long xD)
Click to expand...





Many "quality" detailers will say this. As I said, many "employee" detailers probably don't know the difference.
 
RaskyR1 said:
Because most high volume shops do more damage than good IMO. They still use a wool pad on the rotary with a filler heavy polish spinning at 3000rpm's and flying over everything, trim and all. I've honestly never set foot in a high volume shop that does "good" work, and I spent over 13 years doing high volume. It's not like I/we didn't know back then that the work was crap, but we were given tool A, Pad B, and Polish C and 2-4 hrs to do a full detail (exterior, interior, engine, trunk...). The pads were always used way beyond their life expectancy but the shop owners were stingy and it was like pulling teeth to get them to pay for new ones. Extractors? Heck, most the shops I was at they had us pressure washing the carpets!



Times have changed a bit since then and with new tools like the Flex 3401 and things like Meguiar's MF system, I do think high volume shops can turn good (hologram free) work in a relatively short amount of time, questions is WILL they.



Gina, I know you have lots of state of the art equipment and have seen some of the great interior work your shop has turned out, but I think shops like yours are very rare, at least in my area they are. ;)



Mind if I ask what your employees are using to polish the vehicles with (tools/pads)
Click to expand...



Typically the job will determine the type of tool and pad.. Yes we tape trim components, Yes we do use high speed buffers, wool pads, sponge pads to do a lot of scratch removal, paint correction, oxidation, etc. Yes we wet sand where and when necessary, but for the vast majority of what we do we use Festool machines or D/A'S, yes with appropriate sponge pads, microfiber pads etc. - We use clay bars, sponge bars, microfiber towel clay cloths, and have always used sealants for the last 30 years... -
 
RaskyR1 said:
To add to my other post, clearly there is a HUGE market for high volume detailing, and there are tons of people that just want a shiny car that don't really care about swirls and scratches. However, I do NOT believe that gives shops the right to fly over the cars with a rotary, instill holograms, and burning edges and trim. If you want to do high volume then more power to you, but do it right! There are lots of tools, pads, and polishes out there that can polish an average sized car, removing light swirls and oxidation safely and hologram free, while still adding protection, in under 60 minutes.
Click to expand...



If they would all stop using rotaries and switch to DAs they'd be a lot better off.
 
Most customers want a clean shiny car. Making the interior look nice and smell nice and shining up the exterior is what 90% of customers want. Show car owners and people with high end toys might want every imperfection removed but most do not. Whether you are a high production shop or a guy like me (2 to 3 cars a week) you need to meet the customers needs. I am redoing my prices and services based on the fact that people are more willing to pay for clean interiors than perfect exteriors. Maybe the production shops are meeting the expectations of their customers and so are you.
 
I think the fault is 2 fold and it stems from the Dealership.And also that 99% of detail shops (brick n morter) can't survive without doing dealer work.



1st - Dealerships want it cheap, fast, clean and shiny. Any shop that wants their business will give them what they want or else they won't be in business very long doing dealer work.



2nd - The detail shop operator specializes in cleaning cars, but lacks in knowing how to increase their pricing structure (marketing) on a semi-regular basis to be able to give more effort into the job. This means better training and better tools. I think it's sad that detail shops are still charging roughly the same price for dealer work as they were for almost the last decade. Yeah, the dealers do a great job of keeping them down, but the shops lay down and take it. They are they're own worst enemy.



Because the majority of details shops don't put their foot down to playing this cat and mouse game with dealers they continue to keep their standards low creating even further damage to this segment of the industry's ego. This then gets notoriety by the people who follow the Autopian community and this is why their is such a huge disconnect between each.



Autopian ways of detailing have their time and place, but not when it comes to making money in a detail shop environment. Yes, there are an isolated of exception to the norm, but it's not mainstream or easily attainable.
 
Well stated, David, unfortunate that most just don't get what you posted.



As Bud has said for years, and if you don't know of him, then you are new by years to what a decades long in the industry as said for years, he put it simple.



Too easy to buy some sort of chemicals, do it cheap and do as long as they can until they move on.

Bud is not everyone's "cup of tea", however, he has survived for decades by doing exactly what so many are doing today, "education/knowledge/process/chemicals that fit the need".



So, a guy starts up a "detailer business, be it 3 months or a year, and then they are gone, with 10 people lined up to take their place in that market.



I won't go on, but, yes I will, so here it goes, just this, it is very easy to go out with some stuff off a shelf from some store, do the work that is not understood by the customers, and make a buck.



The "industry" is not an organized automotive services industry such as mufflers, brakes, oil changes, etc, and a good part of that is due to the low cost of getting in and no set standards or such.



Detailing is not recognized as something that is needed to insure safety of the vehicle, or keep it running down the road.



It is an "appearance" issue with most, these people don't consider the "trade in value" or their image in their social or work group.



As I have posted before, the "detailing industry" is not an organized automotive industry, as so many come and go, make a buck, etc.



Those who are working to build a real business in their market, just fail to follow what the other, successful "automotive services" in their market do--get them in, do a diagnois, show and tell, sell the services!



Which is why the average "cost" to do what the "average car owner" thinks is a true detail is so confused, which makes it a "what does it cost to make it shine and the crap out of the carpet" mind set of most who buy a "detail".

Grumpy
 
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