Who and what deindustrialized America.

WhyteWizard

New member
I happened to be working for Hadley Auto Transport in 1980, at the Ford plant in Pico Rivera, CA. I got to see first hand the effects of Reaganomics. The myth has been repeated so often and for so long now that people believe it but this is a much more accurate description of what happened and has happened since.

I'd also like to point out, since unions and regulations get blamed - in the myth - that Germany, which is much more unionized and regulated did not deindustrialize and is doing very well.

Robert
 
Germany manages to have universal healthcare and public education through college, so why wouldn't we want to do better?

Robert
 
Germans are more educated than Americans

Germany is experiencing the same de-industrialization as the United States


You should start a small business...say 51 employees and then learn about Unions and Regulations from the perspective of the guy Writing the Checks instead of the Employee Cashing them
 
Germans are more educated than Americans

Germany is experiencing the same de-industrialization as the United States


You should start a small business...say 51 employees and then learn about Unions and Regulations from the perspective of the guy Writing the Checks instead of the Employee Cashing them


Yes, Germans are more educated than Americans.

No, they have not and are not experiencing the same deindustrialization as the US has since Reagan.

Finally, thank you the life coaching, at least, thank you on behalf of whoever that might benefit.

Robert
 
One key aspect to Germany is that a lot of manufacturing businesses are still family owned so less stock holder pressure wanting higher stock prices at the expense of everything else This means no pressure to move jobs offshore to save money. Also, many CEO salaries in Germany are not hundred fold higher than worker salaries.

I do not blame Reagan for it but just multi-nationals that see profit over national interests. They have no loyalty. They will sell you out. The same is true with the financial firms that take risks that endanger the financial system of the country and the world. I do believe if a bank or financial firm is too big to fail, it is too big.
 
The free trade agreements, including the one the president just signed has literally killed this once great country. Ross Perot had it right (but people thought him a wacko). We cannot compete with slave labor. Pure and simple. We allow China to kill us with their financial leverage because another wonderful GOP president got us into a ten year war that was financed with a Chinese credit card and they literally own us. Reagan and his BS trickle down philosophy... should be called trickled on because the middle class has been trickled on since... with extinction not far away. I honesty think at this point, a revolution is the only option left. Not an armed confrontation...but a revolution of the choices we make at the voting booth of our business as usual leaders, and those who finance their campaigns.

If you look at who is drawing the largest crowds right now, its not mainstream Clinton or Bush...its Bernie sanders and Donald trump...both considered extremists by Washington insiders. Its obvious these guys are tapping into the frustration and betrayal of what average Joe is feeling out there. Until average Joe gets the courage to overthrow mainstream Washington politicians and those who finance them...nothing changes and the decline continues.
 
Silverfox,

By the time Clinton signed NAFTA, approved by a Republican Senate, the jobs had for the most part all ready left. President Obama hasn't signed the TPP, just gotten fast track authority, with a majority of Republicans voting to give him the authority and a majority of Democrats opposing. The Reagan tax cuts were brought to us by a Republican House and Senate.

As far as Sanders and Trump are concerned, you're right, they're both drawing big crowds and appealing to the base of their two parties. I think it's interesting that Sanders is talking about jobs, the economy, etc. and Trump is talking about bombing oil fields - how stark a difference is that?

Robert
 
Ah, what became the "black hole"! That whole place is gone now, isn't it?

After it shut down, it reopened as a Northrup Grumman - B2 bomber - plant when Reagan did the military build up as stimulus routine, but that was unsustainable. It was demolished in 2001 but I haven't been by there in awhile so I don't know if anything has been done with the property.

Robert
 
As far as Sanders and Trump are concerned, you're right, they're both drawing big crowds and appealing to the base of their two parties.


I don't think that Trump is at all appealing to the base of the GOP. Quite the contrary, his views and rhetoric have the GOP base in a panic because they fear they're going to be painted with the same bigoted wacko brush that he's been painted with. That's the best thing that the Dems could hope for also.
 
One of the important lessons of politics is to ignore what politicians, political parties and political front groups say and instead look at what they actually do, especially on economic issues. There are far more than a few supposedly pro-labor Democrats that have cast crucial votes to strengthen international mega corporations or the financial industries at the expense of middle class Americans. Similarly there are huge numbers of supposedly pro-small-government, pro-fiscal-responsibility Republicans that have acted to increase the size and power of government (especially the federal government) and to increase government spending while reducing government revenues. The influential core of both parties serve the interests of the 0.1% and unless your assets number in at least the tens of millions (that amount will get you in the door but not a seat at the table) you're only going to be thrown crumbs.
 
The free trade agreements, including the one the president just signed has literally killed this once great country. Ross Perot had it right (but people thought him a wacko). We cannot compete with slave labor. Pure and simple. We allow China to kill us with their financial leverage because another wonderful GOP president got us into a ten year war that was financed with a Chinese credit card and they literally own us. Reagan and his BS trickle down philosophy... should be called trickled on because the middle class has been trickled on since... with extinction not far away. I honesty think at this point, a revolution is the only option left. Not an armed confrontation...but a revolution of the choices we make at the voting booth of our business as usual leaders, and those who finance their campaigns.

If you look at who is drawing the largest crowds right now, its not mainstream Clinton or Bush...its Bernie sanders and Donald trump...both considered extremists by Washington insiders. Its obvious these guys are tapping into the frustration and betrayal of what average Joe is feeling out there. Until average Joe gets the courage to overthrow mainstream Washington politicians and those who finance them...nothing changes and the decline continues.

I spoke of the demise of the middle class about a year ago. In fact it was when AGO went to $150.00 free shipping. I was labeled as a wacko at the time but I think more people are waking up and realizing what is/has been going on. To this day my orders from AGO have been drastically cut from the 15% $95.00 times. So maybe I am still a wacko in some eyes.

Dave
 
Yes, Germans are more educated than Americans.

No, they have not and are not experiencing the same deindustrialization as the US has since Reagan.

Finally, thank you the life coaching, at least, thank you on behalf of whoever that might benefit.

Robert

I toyed around with moving to Germany a few years ago. Not like I'd really do it - but I looked into it. The thing that impressed me most about Germany is the people. Everyone seems to take pride in everything they do. Everything just seems cleaner and more organized - even really old places.

Why is this?

I dunno. Part of it is cultural I guess. But, my theory is Germany was so destroyed after WW2 and people had zero. People worked their butt off to rebuild that country - and reaped the benefits of hard work... Because they actually experienced the alternative.

Maybe people have it too easy here... The govt will feed you, house you, take care of your kids, and give you free medical care... There seems to be a lot of "what can someone gimme" here, opposed to "what can I do for myself" there.
 
It might be that in Germany, the benefits of work go to everyone not just the top 1%. It might be that they have a collective view of what it means to be a German and that view means, everyone gets to make a contribution - work - and get paid enough for that work to live a decent life. It might be that they don't have to worry about paying back student loans for diplomas that aren't worth anything. It might be that the government provides the infrastructure - the gimmes - of healthcare, education, a clean and safe environment, good labor laws that make paying decent wages compulsory, that provide a basis for the idea that if you work hard you'll be rewarded, not just starve more slowly.

Robert
 
It might be that in Germany, the benefits of work go to everyone not just the top 1%. It might be that they have a collective view of what it means to be a German and that view means, everyone gets to make a contribution - work - and get paid enough for that work to live a decent life. It might be that they don't have to worry about paying back student loans for diplomas that aren't worth anything. It might be that the government provides the infrastructure - the gimmes - of healthcare, education, a clean and safe environment, good labor laws that make paying decent wages compulsory, that provide a basis for the idea that if you work hard you'll be rewarded, not just starve more slowly.

Robert

I respectfully disagree.

1. I think people get the government they deserve. I don't see adding more government and infrastructure as ever a solution to economic or social problems.

2. I'm sure people there are payed what they are worth - as are people here. I don't believe just "paying people more" solves anything.

3. I don't get the hate for diplomas and student loans. If someone wants an education - someone else should pay for it???

My student loans were like $80k when I graduated. Quite frankly, I choose an career and professional program where I would have no problem paying them back. If you choose to go to college for a non marketable skill - who's fault is that?

I gladly write that check each month. Without college, I'd still be making $36k a year.
 
I respectfully disagree.

1. I think people get the government they deserve. I don't see adding more government and infrastructure as ever a solution to economic or social problems.

2. I'm sure people there are payed what they are worth - as are people here. I don't believe just "paying people more" solves anything.

3. I don't get the hate for diplomas and student loans. If someone wants an education - someone else should pay for it???

My student loans were like $80k when I graduated. Quite frankly, I choose an career and professional program where I would have no problem paying them back. If you choose to go to college for a non marketable skill - who's fault is that?

I gladly write that check each month. Without college, I'd still be making $36k a year.


Or do we have the government monied interests have paid for?

People are payed what they'll accept, particularly when there are more people than jobs.

I don't hate real education. I hate the diploma mills that help people get loans for worthless educations. Most of the universities you hear advertized on the radio spend more on promotion than education and they take the money and leave the students with nothing but debt.

A system can't be judged based on the ones who are ahead at the moment. That's like saying Las Vegas is good for people because a certain percentage win. "Winners talk, losers walk." is a true here as it is in Vegas.

Robert
 
My student loans were like $80k when I graduated. Quite frankly, I choose an career and professional program where I would have no problem paying them back. If you choose to go to college for a non marketable skill - who's fault is that?

This is another aspect of the Germany economy. Germany has a strong vocational training aspect. In the US, these skills are often looked down upon so when people graduate they have skills the economy could use.

But each country can decide if they want higher taxes in exchange for health care, education, etc. and not spend 1/2 their budget on defense. Germany spends 1/10 of what we spend. I guess they let us carry the load.
 
I respectfully disagree.

1. I think people get the government they deserve. I don't see adding more government and infrastructure as ever a solution to economic or social problems.

2. I'm sure people there are payed what they are worth - as are people here. I don't believe just "paying people more" solves anything.

3. I don't get the hate for diplomas and student loans. If someone wants an education - someone else should pay for it???

My student loans were like $80k when I graduated. Quite frankly, I choose an career and professional program where I would have no problem paying them back. If you choose to go to college for a non marketable skill - who's fault is that?

I gladly write that check each month. Without college, I'd still be making $36k a year.

I don't think a study of history will support the second sentence of your first argument. If you look at the quality of day-to-day life for most Americans from Reconstruction through the early 1930s, a period when America was already well on the road to becoming a industrial society but almost entirely unregulated and the Federal Government was quite small relative to the current size, not many people would willingly trade places from the modern era. It was a period of financial instability/uncertainty, short life spans, disease and injury. Even if you factor out advances in technology like electricity and better medical care there is compelling evidence that government in the form of water and sewer infrastructure, controls on pollution, worker safety standards, etc. has dramatically improved most peoples lives. Additionally, post-WWII many of the technological advances were partially or entirely the product of government research or research grants. Similarly you can look at tightly governed modern societies (Germany, the Scandinavian countries, Finland, Singapore, etc.) and contrast the quality of life in those countries with minimally governed countries and I don't think the quality of life for most people favors small government.

Certainly there is an immense amount of waste and bloat in our federal government, just look at the F-35, but do I believe that the FDA, EPA, OSHA, SSA, etc., are conceptually and inherently bad? The answer to that has to be a ringing "NO!" for me. For most Americans the quality of daily saw relatively steady and significant improvement from the late 1930s into the 1970s.

I do, however, think that quality of elected government has gotten markedly worse in the USA over the last twenty plus years relative to the 1950s through 1970s even in light of the not insignificant problems of those years. Personally, I don't think electing Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush or Scott Walker or... is likely to improve things.
 
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