What would be your reply?

A

Anthony O.

New member
I was floating around some of my old stomping grounds (detailing forums) and I came across this one guy asking advice on what type of wax he can use with a high speed rotary, and one that will not dry out while using it with a high speed rotary. A product that he can, in his words, "work into the paint".



So I figured I would reply to him and told him basically that:

1) Waxes for the most part are best applied by hand, at least paste waxes.

2) Waxes will always dry out faster when applied with a rotary because of the heat and friction.

3) Even liquid (creme) waxes, though having a longer work time, will also dry out (haze) quick.

4) You can't work a product "INTO the paint" but rather the product is worked BY the machine or by hand.



Here now is his reply to me. I mean no offense here to this person, I will not reveal his name or the forum because I do not seek to embarass the guy or anything, but rather I am seeking how others would have replied.



Thanks, Anthony



His Reply:



"Have you ever waxed a black or dark colored car? If you have, You may have noticed that some waxes leave little sections of the paint darker than the rest of the car.(Hard to explain in words). You avoid this when you work the wax on the paint for over several minutes. Others know what I'm talking about. Hand waxing is for the weekend detailer. I have also found the I get a better shine and the wax lasts longer when it was put on with a machine rather than hand. Plus, when someone in the business waxes 10 cars a day, they don't want their arm to fall off or waste time achieving so-so results. Also, go read the directions for application on any commercial wax. Most of them have directions for rotary use. I want to know if there is anything made just for use with a rotary or dual action. My problem is I am using more wax than I should because my current choice drys to fast. "
 
jgv-



That's funny! And succinct.



Anthony, we probably could change the world, one detailer at a time, but why?



You are just not going to win with this guy... He's already learned all he can handle!



Jim
 
Come to find out this guy has only been detailing for 2 years and guess where? A car dealership:shocked



Here is something else I found that a detailer wrote in his or her bio, get a load of this.



I have been a professional detailer for over ten years. No one has been able to touch my quality or technique in years. Need help? Let me help you.
Click to expand...





Hey at least he or she is seeking to help others, eh?



Anthony
 
I wonder what kind of wax he is using that it is so streaky when applied by hand? Probably some mass produced stuff for 'assembly line' detailers. Ugh.



I don't think he is even worth bothering with.
 
Anthony Orosco said:
Come to find out this guy has only been detailing for 2 years and guess where? A car dealership:shocked



Here is something else I found that a detailer wrote in his or her bio, get a load of this.









Hey at least he or she is seeking to help others, eh?



Anthony
Click to expand...



Don't get me started on dealership "detailers". I had an argument with the "head of detailing" at the local Nissan dealer on Thursday after he nearly ruined the hood, roof and trunk on a 2004 Black Infiniti. He swore up and down that the hard, brown substance that was all over the car was not tree sap and must be some kind of special paint or something because he couldn't get it off and he knew everything of course. Well the management sent the car to me and we had the tree sap off in about 25 minutes (pine tree sap - removed easily with turpentine with no damage to the finish). HOWEVER, we had to spend another 4 hours removing the heavy gouges from the hood, roof and trunk and lightly polish the sides. My head guy says to me when we see the damage this knucklehead made: "don't you think when you made the first severe scratch you might STOP and ask for help because you don't know what you are dealing with?". We got the scratches out and the car looking as good as it could but there was unfixable tree sap damage that was slightly visible in certain light. I wish I had my digital camera

Anthony so I could show you how good most dealership guys are.

P.S. Guess how long this guy has been detailing? 10 years.
 
Shineshop,



"10 years" :shocked That's just wrong! You would think with 10 years experience they would have run across something like this before and now know how to deal with it.



Like the guy I quoted, who seems to be "god" of detailers with his vast knowledge, I bet doesn't know half of what he or she thinks they know. When I started my dojo some years back we would get people in from all styles of martial arts and they almost all thought thier poop didn't stink. Those that stuck with us though soon lost that attitude and with time and experience became more and more humble. You would think that this would or should also be true for detailing.



Most of the pros here know they can do very good work but as far as I have seen everyones egos are in check, no inflated heads and the attitudes seem to be in the right place. So after "10 years" in a craft one would expect to find a person with both head and heart knowledge and not a legend in their own minds.



By the way, pine tree sap is a real pain in the butt:scared When I lived in Calif. I would see some cars that looked like someone poured syrup on the hoods and roofs. So would the people stop parking under the pinetrees?? NO!:nixweiss



Anthony
 
Anthony,



Interesting comparison between martial arts and detailing. I practiced Hapkido for a short time and besides the actual practice, I really enjoyed the mental side of the art. I find the interesting point in your comparison is that the actual experts, the best of the best so to speak, actually see their art as a continual refinement, always searching for improvement, never artificially halting the learning process. If you've read anything about Bruce Lee, you will see that attitude reflected in his words and actions. He never was above learning and refining techniques he picked up from anyone or anywhere.



Guys like the detailer you mentioned never reach the top rung in the ladder because they have halted their learning, when in reality, they were just at the beginning of their journey.



One of the reasons I enjoy your posts is not only do you help pull us "newbies" along, but because you are continually trying to refine your skills.



Good luck to all on our journey to detailing (& life) nirvana.



Sam
 
Anthony- Heh heh, I read:



I have been a professional detailer for over ten years. No one has been able to touch my quality or technique in years. Need help? Let me help you.
Click to expand...



And I immediately thought :rolleyes: "*WRONG* kind of martial-arts instructor!" The world is just full of them, in every area of endeavor :(



I seldom try to enlighten people who are obviously entrenched in their [supply your own derogatory adjective ;) ] mindsets. It IS too bad that they dispense their "advice" to the unwary, but THOSE are the ones to try to inform- the people who realize that they don't know it all.
 
SamIam,:xyxthumbs



I agree with your conclusion of Bruce Lee and attitude. My father-in-law had the privilege of working out with Mr. Lee while in California. Great stories he has told me about him.



I study Akibujitsu and while I have been away from it for some time now you never get over it and I always think about it and practice and study as time allows. You are also correct in that many people are unwilling to "empty their cup" so to speak to allow it to again be filled. Knowledge can be crippling or freeing.



Accumulator,



Not to get too far off topic here but we had a "black belt" come in to our humble little dojo one evening and began bragging about her students, level of training, how she trains police, military and others, and while she was speaking all of this to my chief instructor we began class with our tumbling and falls. We then went into the lesson, mind you we mix all levels into the same class, black belt and newbies, and she was puzzled by this and explained why her school doesn't do that.



Well the end of the class comes and she stays for the whole thing and our chief instructor invites her onto the mat to show us a few things in her style. She flat out refuses. The invitation was sincere because we believe that all styles and disciplines have something to offer. My instructor then asked her what she teaches when a woman is grabbed by a man. She explains in great technical terms what she teaches and what should be done so one of our guys, not a black belt mind you, grabs her and she freaks. She can't get out of his hold, she can't kick him, punch him nor break his lock. He lets her go and I then ask her what went wrong? Her reply was that she was going to kick him but when I asked why she couldn't her answer was that she didn't have enough room!!!



The point here is that her style, which was a classic punch-kick style, did not allow her to grow and incorporate other styles and options. This is then transferred over to her students who now have a false trust in thier own ability to protect themselves.



Detailers can fall into the same trap by refusing advice from others, whether pro or amatuer and looking down on others who may do things in a different way. Sadly the world is FULL of these typs who are FULL of themselves......OK, sorry for the novel:D



Anthony
 
Id like to get a definition on "10 years of detailing". Because I have been detailing for about that long as well. And six of them were washing a car then nu finish? Ive been detailing by Autopia method for 4 years trying to use as many reconmended products as possible.



Why did I first get onto Autopia?



Because my first boss and i detailed cars on the side of car audio.



He taught me alot although I was never happy with the cars ofter using a rotary. Swirls everywhere, just a bad bad job. I wanted cars to look new.



So I stumbled upon here in 2000 and learnt another way. I suggested to my boss to meguairs foam pads and thier products. Wouldnt have a bar of it at first. Eventually after me buying them and showing him, he was sold.



I hope this puts another angle on the previous topic.



I did Goju Ryu Karate for years, I remember all the teens coming in trying to be the best and then quiting because they wouldnt learn the metal side which is very important.
 
ShineShop said:
Don't get me started on dealership "detailers". I had an argument with the "head of detailing" at the local Nissan dealer on Thursday after he nearly ruined the hood, roof and trunk on a 2004 Black Infiniti. He swore up and down that the hard, brown substance that was all over the car was not tree sap and must be some kind of special paint or something because he couldn't get it off and he knew everything of course. Well the management sent the car to me and we had the tree sap off in about 25 minutes (pine tree sap - removed easily with turpentine with no damage to the finish). HOWEVER, we had to spend another 4 hours removing the heavy gouges from the hood, roof and trunk and lightly polish the sides. My head guy says to me when we see the damage this knucklehead made: "don't you think when you made the first severe scratch you might STOP and ask for help because you don't know what you are dealing with?".
Click to expand...



Park Place Mercedes Benz in Bedford, Texas told the guy who owns this S600 there was nothing they could do for his paint in this thread:



http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28662



Took me a little over 3 hours to get the hard rust water stains off the paint. The owner of the car is sure that they were going to try and convince him the car needed repainting.



Reason #975972072 that dealership detailers do not need to touch your car. I am sure some of them started off good, but the assembly line mentality breaks their spirit quickly it seems.
 
Anthony,



I did indeed. Because i got sick of handing customers back that standard of work and saying i did it. Humiliating.



So if it is to be it is up to me right !!!
 
Scottwax said:
Park Place Mercedes Benz in Bedford, Texas told the guy who owns this S600 there was nothing they could do for his paint in this thread:



http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28662



Took me a little over 3 hours to get the hard rust water stains off the paint. The owner of the car is sure that they were going to try and convince him the car needed repainting.



Reason #975972072 that dealership detailers do not need to touch your car. I am sure some of them started off good, but the assembly line mentality breaks their spirit quickly it seems.
Click to expand...



You know it's sad because most of these guys that are so-called "experts" that work at dealers have been doing this at least as long as I have and they still don't know jack squat. Worse yet is that the dealerships don't care! I know if I ever own a car dealership we will have the best damn detail shop of any dealer - anywhere! It just makes good financial sense to have the cars done right - whether it is done in house or outsourced to a high quality shop.
 
ShineShop said:
You know it's sad because most of these guys that are so-called "experts" that work at dealers have been doing this at least as long as I have and they still don't know jack squat. Worse yet is that the dealerships don't care! I know if I ever own a car dealership we will have the best damn detail shop of any dealer - anywhere! It just makes good financial sense to have the cars done right - whether it is done in house or outsourced to a high quality shop.
Click to expand...



I agree. I just don't understand dealerships, especially those who sell luxury cars can allow such substandard work. One of my customers bought a BMW 745Li and he specifically told them no wax or buffing of any kind. His saleslady said that was probably a good idea since the week before, one of the makeready guys skipped a buffer across the hood of a 745 and ruined the hood and the customer refused the car. Same dealership's body shop did a great repaint on a '96 740iL, (very flat paint, almost no orange peel), then nearly trashed all that hard work by leaving horrible buffer marks all over the paint. I just don't get it. Obviously, after wetsanding you are going to need to use a rotary and wool pad to remove the sanding marks, but you don't stop there, you need to follow with a swirl remover and foam polishing pad and then a glaze and finishing pad...but no, they simply buff with a wool pad and are done with it. :angry



I did send a thank-you note to the dealer for the extra work I was able to charge for to remove the swirls they left behind. No response though. :(
 
Anthony- Enjoyed your sorta-off-thread "novel" about the visiting black belt. And for a (female) instructor to be flummoxed by a (presumably simple) "grab" seems to certainly bode ill for her students, especially women in "real world" encounters. Lots of false confidence out there, sometimes getting people hurt :(



Amusing (at least to me) related anecdote: In a similar situation an instructor grabbed my wife from the front (they were practicing hold-breaking or throws or something, I forget), and she reflexively kneed him in the groin, rather effectively. She'd let her mind wander for a second and just did what she'd been trained to do when someone grabs her that way :D He's a great guy, and we both felt sorry for him, but the look on his face was priceless.



Back on topic, as I read the continuing horror stories about what happens at dealerships, I just feel *SO* fortunate to have a decent dealer like Stoddard Imported Cars. Maybe they treat me "special", but their guys *DO* do it right for me and mine. When I just want to get the car and not start off ownership with a big detailing project, I don't have to worry that they'll mess it up. They KNOW that I'll refuse it if it's messed up and they DO appreciate the way I keep our cars. I recognize that they are in the minority, but it really burns me up when people pay good money for damaged-not-detailed cars.



Maybe if more people refused delivery over stuff like this they'd get the message, but I honestly believe that MOST people just don't care that much.
 
I feel everyones pain who has to deal with the dealership detailers, I recently got a rush of new Porsches to detail because the dealerships detailer runied a few paint jobs, a Cayenne , a Turbo and a 4s. They where parked under a tree and got a good deal of tree sap on them , the detailer couldn't remove it with cleaner then he tried polish and then compound and that was still not harsh enough. So then he took the rotary to it with alittle fast orange hand cleaner (read pumice). Still not able to remove the sap so out came bonami cleaner with the rotary! Still was not able to remove the sap but did a great job of striping the clear coat. I saw these car after the mess and the paint was ruined all needed a repaint. Needless to say the detailer is gone, the real problem lies in the dealerships managment they don't want to spend any more then $10 maybe $15 and hour for detailing and they want the detailer to supply their own chemicals , thus the hand & toliet cleaners being used on $100,000 cars. :scared
 
detailbarn said:
.... the real problem lies in the dealerships managment they don't want to spend any more then $10 maybe $15 and hour for detailing and they want the detailer to supply their own chemicals , thus the hand & toliet cleaners being used on $100,000 cars. :scared
Click to expand...



This is the point! Those dealers don't give a s****t about the car as long as they sell it. I once was at our MB dealer and all the cars in the show room had lots of swirls, I said I could fix that and when they asked for my price they said NO WAY! They just let some guy w/ a rotary shine the paint and leave white marks on every trim.
 
Accumulator ,



Man O man....those kness to the groins are always a shocker:shocked



We used to give women anti-rape clinics and I would always go home just beat up and bruised and needed a day to recover. One gal I was working with was a rape victim and because I stressed our clinics be very realistic she must have had a freakin flash back or something but she locked my fingers up, just as I showed her, and just about broke two of them if I had not screamed out from the sheer pain!:scared :D LOL



detailbarn, jgv...



That's pretty much the problem in a nut shell. The dealers want to squeeze out every penny of profit so they skimp like a pimp...hey I made a rhyme:D They forget that the first thing a potential customers sees is the outside appearance of the car. It should be spotless, no window smears, no fingerprints, wax residue and no swirls. If dealers did that the cars woul dbe flying off the showroom floor!



Anthony
 
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