"What Swirl Marks?"

I had a customer last week who brought me a 2008 Black Tahoe. It looked like he had been wiping it with those stiff brown paper towels from the public restroom.

(Sorry no pics)

He said it didn't need to be polished, just "waxed". (He cheaped out on the polish!) I pointed out the EXTENSIVE swirlmarks on the black paint and our conversation went something like this:

[Tahoe parked in direct sunlight.]

"Can you see those thousands of tiny little hairline scratches? They're called "Swirlmarks".

"No."

"You can't see those?" (Me pointing directly at the sun reflection in the paint)


"No."

"The tiny little fine scratches?"

"No."

"OK then."[roll eyes]

"Obviously, the clearcoat is doing it's job, because the car looks great. Just needs a little "wax"."

"OK."

[Washed and waxed. Customer is always right.]:banghead:
 
Ya gotta love 'em Bill.

Most people are so used to all the swirls and scratches that they don't even see them. They are so acustomed to seeing them, that they think that is how the car is supposed to look. I am surprised that a person like this would even bring his car to a detailer.:huh::out:
 
bmw5541 said:
Ya gotta love 'em Bill.

Most people are so used to all the swirls and scratches that they don't even see them. They are so acustomed to seeing them, that they think that is how the car is supposed to look. I am surprised that a person like this would even bring his car to a detailer.:huh::out:
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Don't get me wrong... this is a very nice Tahoe. Very clean and well maintained. And he washes it religiously at least once a week (hence the condition of the paint!), but clean inside and out, nonetheless.

He's just blind to swirls!
 
Here's an idea - perhaps if he actually acknowledges the swirls in the paint are there, then he is admitting that he probably had something to do with putting them on the paint in the first place...

You need to show him your website where you have pics of a 50/50 shot of swirls vs corrected paint on a black vehicle..

Or, perhaps he has really bad eyesight ?? :)



Dan F
 
I've related this story a number of times but it's still fresh in my memory after almost 3 years!

When I was ordering my new BMW 335i coupe (Black Sapphire) I had to insist to the Sales Associate that I did NOT want it detailed or even washed when it arrives to the dealer. It was about the 3rd or 4th visit to the dealer and he was tied up with another customer for a little while that day so I spent some time browsing through the showroom floor. They had a gorgeous Jet Black Z4M Coupe sitting there and under the recessed lighting was glistening in all of its swirl glory. I couldn't believe the condition of that paint. When my SA finally greeted me I again used the opportunity to remind him NOT TO EVEN WASH IT!!! He was still not getting it and kept insisting I let his "detail guys" clean it up after it arrives as a pre delivery service. I asked him if he would indulge me for just a minute.

I walked him out to the Z4 coupe and under the reflection of the light I asked him if he could see the numerous fine scratches in the lights reflection. He either didn't see them or didn't want to acknowledge them at first. "See what looks like spider web type scratches in the reflection?", I continued. He finally acquiesced and admitted to seeing them saying something like "oh, all cars have that".

I asked him if he thinks the car left Munich like that. I then asked him if the Vehicle Prep Center in South Carolina put those in the paint. After he silently answered my questions in his head I think he realized his "detail guys" probably were responsible for them as a result of their "skills". Bottom line is that the sales guy probably never noticed them until that day. Even if he was blind to them like Bill's customer and was simply going along with me I made another impression of how insistent I was.

The final trump card was when I threatened to NOT give the post sale survey "all 5's" as BMWNA and the dealer wants as customer follow up. That was the Achilles Heel and was played just in case he forgets during the next 9 weeks waiting for delivery.

It worked! When he called me to come pick up my new BMW it was filthy!!! I was EXTREMELY happy and expressed my appreciation. I promptly drove it home and washed it lovingly. I was inclined to then jump back in it, drive up to the dealer and ask him to pull the Z4 out into the sun and park it right next to mine to show them how they arrive to them off the truck! Nah, the next customer after me would still get the dealer "detail".

I understand, Bill, how that customer went against your best intentions but I always give em what they want to pay for. I'm hoping he did see what you were pointing out (like my Sales guy) and it might register later on.
 
Puckman said:
I've related this story a number of times but it's still fresh in my memory after almost 3 years!

When I was ordering my new BMW 335i coupe (Black Sapphire) I had to insist to the Sales Associate that I did NOT want it detailed or even washed when it arrives to the dealer. It was about the 3rd or 4th visit to the dealer and he was tied up with another customer for a little while that day so I spent some time browsing through the showroom floor. They had a gorgeous Jet Black Z4M Coupe sitting there and under the recessed lighting was glistening in all of its swirl glory. I couldn't believe the condition of that paint. When my SA finally greeted me I again used the opportunity to remind him NOT TO EVEN WASH IT!!! He was still not getting it and kept insisting I let his "detail guys" clean it up after it arrives as a pre delivery service. I asked him if he would indulge me for just a minute.

I walked him out to the Z4 coupe and under the reflection of the light I asked him if he could see the numerous fine scratches in the lights reflection. He either didn't see them or didn't want to acknowledge them at first. "See what looks like spider web type scratches in the reflection?", I continued. He finally acquiesced and admitted to seeing them saying something like "oh, all cars have that".

I asked him if he thinks the car left Munich like that. I then asked him if the Vehicle Prep Center in South Carolina put those in the paint. After he silently answered my questions in his head I think he realized his "detail guys" probably were responsible for them as a result of their "skills". Bottom line is that the sales guy probably never noticed them until that day. Even if he was blind to them like Bill's customer and was simply going along with me I made another impression of how insistent I was.

The final trump card was when I threatened to NOT give the post sale survey "all 5's" as BMWNA and the dealer wants as customer follow up. That was the Achilles Heel and was played just in case he forgets during the next 9 weeks waiting for delivery.

It worked! When he called me to come pick up my new BMW it was filthy!!! I was EXTREMELY happy and expressed my appreciation. I promptly drove it home and washed it lovingly. I was inclined to then jump back in it, drive up to the dealer and ask him to pull the Z4 out into the sun and park it right next to mine to show them how they arrive to them off the truck! Nah, the next customer after me would still get the dealer "detail".

I understand, Bill, how that customer went against your best intentions but I always give em what they want to pay for. I'm hoping he did see what you were pointing out (like my Sales guy) and it might register later on.
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Very good point!!!
 
Puckman said:
I've related this story a number of times but it's still fresh in my memory after almost 3 years!

When I was ordering my new BMW 335i coupe (Black Sapphire) I had to insist to the Sales Associate that I did NOT want it detailed or even washed when it arrives to the dealer. It was about the 3rd or 4th visit to the dealer and he was tied up with another customer for a little while that day so I spent some time browsing through the showroom floor. They had a gorgeous Jet Black Z4M Coupe sitting there and under the recessed lighting was glistening in all of its swirl glory. I couldn't believe the condition of that paint. When my SA finally greeted me I again used the opportunity to remind him NOT TO EVEN WASH IT!!! He was still not getting it and kept insisting I let his "detail guys" clean it up after it arrives as a pre delivery service. I asked him if he would indulge me for just a minute.

I walked him out to the Z4 coupe and under the reflection of the light I asked him if he could see the numerous fine scratches in the lights reflection. He either didn't see them or didn't want to acknowledge them at first. "See what looks like spider web type scratches in the reflection?", I continued. He finally acquiesced and admitted to seeing them saying something like "oh, all cars have that".

I asked him if he thinks the car left Munich like that. I then asked him if the Vehicle Prep Center in South Carolina put those in the paint. After he silently answered my questions in his head I think he realized his "detail guys" probably were responsible for them as a result of their "skills". Bottom line is that the sales guy probably never noticed them until that day. Even if he was blind to them like Bill's customer and was simply going along with me I made another impression of how insistent I was.

The final trump card was when I threatened to NOT give the post sale survey "all 5's" as BMWNA and the dealer wants as customer follow up. That was the Achilles Heel and was played just in case he forgets during the next 9 weeks waiting for delivery.

It worked! When he called me to come pick up my new BMW it was filthy!!! I was EXTREMELY happy and expressed my appreciation. I promptly drove it home and washed it lovingly. I was inclined to then jump back in it, drive up to the dealer and ask him to pull the Z4 out into the sun and park it right next to mine to show them how they arrive to them off the truck! Nah, the next customer after me would still get the dealer "detail".

I understand, Bill, how that customer went against your best intentions but I always give em what they want to pay for. I'm hoping he did see what you were pointing out (like my Sales guy) and it might register later on.
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You got lucky, I find myself fixing more and more bmws for a local dealer but they will not have me do their cars until a customer complains about the dealer detail, they will not pay to have cars done correctly. The detailers there (an outside company) don't know how to hold a buffer let alone use one, I have a 5 series coming on Tuesday I am going to do fully documnted correction on maybe then they will see what can be done. I don't get it sometimes I have never purchased a new car but I see more and more hacked up pre delivery, when I bought my last bike they unboxed and assembeled while I waited and the paint job was perfection and no one touched or wiped anything on it.
 
Yes, those kind of conversations stink, I'm sure. I have not yet had the opportunity to detail anyone else's car (other than family, of course), but will start soon.
I guess the thing we so easily forget (I'm guilty of this in a major way!), is that it truly is about the money with many customers, especially dealerships/commercial clients. You, me and many others on this site really LOVE to do it and LOVE to see our results, much in the same way as an artist, woodworker, etc. We are RECEIVING the money, not PAYING the money, and if someone simply "likes" their vehicle, it often is not worth it (in their mind) to "pay so much".
Personally, I have to get a hold of this concept much better myself when I'm actually doing someone else's car. Find their expectations, explain fully what it will take to get there, do what they pay for (ok...maybe a bit more), and move on. I've already been caught up trying to make something as good as I WANT it, only to hear "it looks GREAT to me, I don't need it perfect; my car's not that nice..."
 
I get these customers all the time, though admittedly a great number of my customers already know my work so they have seen my befores and afters, but lately, I've been getting more and more customers who have never seen my work, so I have to spend more time educating them about paint and what I can do for it.

One thing that I've learned is that we are accustomed to seeing defects in paint, but customers aren't. So to prevent any sort of "distortion", I will take a photo with my digital SLR of the swirls or defects, and show them. There is no way they can NOT see the problem.

Another thing I've learned is that most customers don't realize that swirls are even a problem that can be fixed without a repaint. I hear this quite often from a customer..."I think I need a repaint or I've been told I need to have my car wet sanded"...when all it really needs is just a good polishing.

Once the customer acknowledges the problem, the challenge is convincing them your price is worth it. Because the next problem is, should they accept your price...unless they change their maintenance program, their paint will be all swirly again in no time. Not everybody is willing to give up their local car wash or pay more for a maintenance wash. It's much easier to accept their paint is ugly and will always be that way than expend additional effort or $$.

Just my 2 cents.

Richard
 
Thank you for the warm welcome! :biggrin:

Working on a Black Jeep Rubicon right now where the owner thought he could improve his new jeep with some Meguiar's paint cleaner, and instead made it look worse....fortunately he had the sense to stop what he was doing and bring it to me, lol. :clap:


doctordon said:
Richard Lin - Welcome to the forum.
For those of you who haven't seen Richard's work, he is a master!
Great to have you as member.
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Puckman said:
I've related this story a number of times but it's still fresh in my memory after almost 3 years!

When I was ordering my new BMW 335i coupe (Black Sapphire) I had to insist to the Sales Associate that I did NOT want it detailed or even washed when it arrives to the dealer. It was about the 3rd or 4th visit to the dealer and he was tied up with another customer for a little while that day so I spent some time browsing through the showroom floor. They had a gorgeous Jet Black Z4M Coupe sitting there and under the recessed lighting was glistening in all of its swirl glory. I couldn't believe the condition of that paint. When my SA finally greeted me I again used the opportunity to remind him NOT TO EVEN WASH IT!!! He was still not getting it and kept insisting I let his "detail guys" clean it up after it arrives as a pre delivery service. I asked him if he would indulge me for just a minute.

I walked him out to the Z4 coupe and under the reflection of the light I asked him if he could see the numerous fine scratches in the lights reflection. He either didn't see them or didn't want to acknowledge them at first. "See what looks like spider web type scratches in the reflection?", I continued. He finally acquiesced and admitted to seeing them saying something like "oh, all cars have that".

I asked him if he thinks the car left Munich like that. I then asked him if the Vehicle Prep Center in South Carolina put those in the paint. After he silently answered my questions in his head I think he realized his "detail guys" probably were responsible for them as a result of their "skills". Bottom line is that the sales guy probably never noticed them until that day. Even if he was blind to them like Bill's customer and was simply going along with me I made another impression of how insistent I was.

The final trump card was when I threatened to NOT give the post sale survey "all 5's" as BMWNA and the dealer wants as customer follow up. That was the Achilles Heel and was played just in case he forgets during the next 9 weeks waiting for delivery.

It worked! When he called me to come pick up my new BMW it was filthy!!! I was EXTREMELY happy and expressed my appreciation. I promptly drove it home and washed it lovingly. I was inclined to then jump back in it, drive up to the dealer and ask him to pull the Z4 out into the sun and park it right next to mine to show them how they arrive to them off the truck! Nah, the next customer after me would still get the dealer "detail".

I understand, Bill, how that customer went against your best intentions but I always give em what they want to pay for. I'm hoping he did see what you were pointing out (like my Sales guy) and it might register later on.
Click to expand...

Great post! Thanks. makes me want to go out a wax, again, mine today.
 
OctaneGuy said:
I get these customers all the time, though admittedly a great number of my customers already know my work so they have seen my befores and afters, but lately, I've been getting more and more customers who have never seen my work, so I have to spend more time educating them about paint and what I can do for it.

One thing that I've learned is that we are accustomed to seeing defects in paint, but customers aren't. So to prevent any sort of "distortion", I will take a photo with my digital SLR of the swirls or defects, and show them. There is no way they can NOT see the problem.

Another thing I've learned is that most customers don't realize that swirls are even a problem that can be fixed without a repaint. I hear this quite often from a customer..."I think I need a repaint or I've been told I need to have my car wet sanded"...when all it really needs is just a good polishing.

Once the customer acknowledges the problem, the challenge is convincing them your price is worth it. Because the next problem is, should they accept your price...unless they change their maintenance program, their paint will be all swirly again in no time. Not everybody is willing to give up their local car wash or pay more for a maintenance wash. It's much easier to accept their paint is ugly and will always be that way than expend additional effort or $$.

Just my 2 cents.

Richard
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Excellent post. Welcome, Richard! Visiting FL anytime soon?
 
Adding to this thread...I just bought a new car...Since 2003, I've had 3 MINI Coopers..so I just picked up my third one a few weeks ago, a 2010 black Cooper Clubman S. It was ordered, built, and shipped from the UK, spent a week and a half in Oxnard at port, then it got to the dealership. They had strict instructions NOT to wash or detail it. The car arrived the night before, and I picked it up the next morning. This is what I found...this happened BEFORE it got to the dealership. Furthermore, I noticed clearcoat overspray over the driverside door jamb and door sill, but there was no record of the car being painted at port or the dealer!

34184_1514634468827_1323392365_1386051_60606_n.jpg


34184_1514634508828_1323392365_1386052_418699_n.jpg


36727_1514638148919_1323392365_1386055_632056_n.jpg




Thanks! Haha, not in my plans yet. Going to Colorado next month for an event, but that's about it.
John Henry said:
Excellent post. Welcome, Richard! Visiting FL anytime soon?
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Thanks! I'm looking forward to it! A lot of times I want to talk about this stuff, but don't want to risk the customer reading it either, lol.

Luster said:
Hey Richard... Welcome to TID! A great place to hang out with others like ourselves. :Dancing Dot:
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Can't win 'em all Bill! Great story Puckman and the condition of "new cars" has forced me into thinking I'll never ever order a brand-new car.
 
I find it a relief when I don't have to polish paint. A swirl free finish isn't for everybody, and you automatically know that your client is going to be happy with the results.
 
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