What are your thoughts?

Barry Theal

Barry Theal

New member
How important are paint meters when doing correction? Many of us own them. Do you feel they are a vital tool to have. Do you trust a meter more then your personal exsperiance? Just thought this would be a good thread to start and see how it runs.
 
Paint meters are useful, but they arent fool proof. You can have 14 mils on a panel, and still have strike through. If there was a way to get an xray or true visualization of the panels layers that would be best, but a tool like that is way beyond this industry imo.



Experience does play a role, but you kinda have to visual paint as a wild animal, as its behavior can be unpredictable even when you think you understand it.



But the best way to determine paint is just by doing. You can measure and gauge your paint as much as you want, but until you actually put that pad and polish to the surface you wont be able to tell what you are up against. My mazda is a good example, i have paint that varies from 5 mils down to 3.1 mils (all factory without any buff work on it.) The paint itself was actually pretty hard, and took multiple passes of m101 and microfiber to make a dent in some RIDS and it still barely took much off the surface.
 
I find them very valuable for:



-Initial walk around a car, to get a feeling of where things are, especially useful when cars have very thin paint or have had repairs

-Spots that need extra attention, ie going after deep scratches.
 
A PTG is only as good as the operator and how they utilize/interpret the measurements it gives them. For me, it generally serves two purposes:



1) Before I begin an aggressive correction job, I take a series of measurements in the area(s) I'll be working on to determine if there are any inconsistencies that would suggest work may have been previously done (meaning I have to be careful in those areas to avoid over-thinning of the clear).



2) While testing a particular buffing setup (machine/speed/pad/product/etc.) I sometimes use the PTG to tell me how much material I'm removing. This is more of a means of fine-tuning in cases where something isn't reacting the way I would expect.



The bottom line ultimately is that a PTG is just another tool in the arsenal and as is the case with any tool or technique for approaching and evaluating a job, over-reliance on it is dangerous and irresponsible. Experience plays a big role in creating successful results, but using everything available to you to enhance and maximize the effectiveness of that experience is what separates good work from great work.
 
[A PTG is only as good as the operator and how they utilize/interpret the measurements it gives them] :2thumbs:





Using a paint thickness gauge gives a professional detailer credibility and also acts as an insurance against ‘break-though’ of a clear coat, which would entail an expensive re-paint and I suspect a very irate customer.



If you have reservations about the amount of paint surface removed or the amount of paint coating remaining the use of a paint thickness gauge (PTG) is arbitrary, especially on classic vehicles, as a re-paint reduces re-sale value



If you use a car outline template and mark the paint thickness, you can advise the customer of any potential problems and you’ll also have a permanent record of the customers paint surface, which can be used as a reference each time the car is polished.







“Paint Thickness Gauge (PTG)” - http://www.autopia.org/forum/guide-detailing/137139-paint-thickness-gauge-ptg.html#post1454624





[Edit: Article link added 07.13.12]
 
I think a gauge is important for doing heavy correction, particularly before hand to identify any potential problem areas caused by previous details. You can work without one and perhaps never have a problem, or know that you have one. Everything may look just fine when you finish, but you may not realize how far you have gone.



A gauge is no substitute for experience, though, and should not be relied upon. Some paints have less tolerance to thinning of the clear. With some tinted clears and pearls even a little thinning can affect appearance.



A PTG can lend to better credibility and insure against claims of damage. When someone's paint fails a year or so later and they want to blame the detailer it might just go a long way to show that care was taken and documented to prevent damage.
 
Barry Theal- Heh heh, I remember when you first joined here and one of our first sorta-:argue was about this very topic! You weren't using an ETG at the time and thought that people should be able to go "by eye" instead of needing a meter. Somebody with strong search-fu skills could probably find the thread.



Anyhooo....I only use my ETG on rare occasions:



-When checking out a potential purchase

-When doing a car whose history I don't know (which isn't often, usually a pal's car or a new-to-me vehicle)

-When doing a repainted car (and the ETG is no crystal ball in those cases!)

-When doing an older car with original paint

-When doing any vehicle that I suspect has thin paint



I have a Phase II and I *DO NOT* recommend anybody buy one. Not user-friendly at all, and hard to get consistent readings with it even when it is working right. Already sent it back once over readings that were all over the map, might have to do it again :rolleyes: It gave me false readings a while back and I haven't used it since, need to recalibrate it and see if it needs sent back again or not.
 
The question is: if you have one, what are your thoughts?



Interesting that you are again giving an opinion on something that you have never used. you are also providing false info. The gauge is an extremely useful tool. Period.



Just recently, I got a call. Short story: black car, dealer hacks it up, owner takes it to a detail shop to remove scratches, they hack it up even worse. They sanded a few areas. Owner still unsatisfied. Finds me and comes by for an estimate. first thing I do is measure the paint where they sanded. One area was too thin low 80s



without the gauge, I would have gone though the clear and I would have had to pay for repaint. With the info I had the owner had the insurance pay the $1800 body shop bill for the repaint.



As far as whether they are accurate or not, you will at least get a general idea of the thickness - that is the most important part of the meter. In "most" cases, you are only removing a few microns here and there anyway. It is a win win situation. I'd never be without one





RZJZA80 said:
I don't have one and never used one, but from the reviews I've thread online, they aren't 100% accurate.
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It think PTG's are great tools. On OEM non messed with finishes they can be a lifesaver. Detecting refinished panels they are also helpful. The only problem is restored finishes. This had been where I have encountered problems. They are a nice gauge on how much you are removing but how much do you have to remove? The use of high build primers and fillers can mess up your day. 90% of my work is restored vehicles and many are older restorations.



I've been fortunate to work behind multiple painters and restoration shops from around the world. It has helped me know painters bad habits and where areas may be thin from the get go. Or during restoration repairs.



One thing I am implementing is documented measurements on my restorations of all layer build throughout the process. At least once done I'll know exactly how much clear or single stage is on the panel because of the above mentioned.



I rely mostly on experience but have one available from my paint supplier if something is questionable.
 
Thomas Dekany said:
The question is: if you have one, what are your thoughts?



Interesting that you are again giving an opinion on something that you have never used. you are also providing false info. The gauge is an extremely useful tool. Period.



Just recently, I got a call. Short story: black car, dealer hacks it up, owner takes it to a detail shop to remove scratches, they hack it up even worse. They sanded a few areas. Owner still unsatisfied. Finds me and comes by for an estimate. first thing I do is measure the paint where they sanded. One area was too thin low 80s



without the gauge, I would have gone though the clear and I would have had to pay for repaint. With the info I had the owner had the insurance pay the $1800 body shop bill for the repaint.



As far as whether they are accurate or not, you will at least get a general idea of the thickness - that is the most important part of the meter. In "most" cases, you are only removing a few microns here and there anyway. It is a win win situation. I'd never be without one
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If you would take a minute to read, and correctly read, you would see that i said I've seen elsewhere over the years that they aren't always 100% accurate, as others have stated also, that wasn't an opinion nor MY opinion, just what I have seen. It seems you have it out for me to discredit any post of mine you can, but by all means, keep trying, I take it as a compliment. I also find it funny that you single out my comment to reply to, but hey, i wouldn't expect any less from you.



You are probably correct, a gauge that is accurate is a valuable tool, I didn't say otherwise.



In summary: you try to discredit my opinion when i didn't give one, only what I have seen others say.
 
RZJZA80 said:
In summary: you try to discredit my opinion when i didn't give one, only what I have seen others say.
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Just to point out; an opinion was asked for. If you don't have one it is in poor form to take it upon yourself to speak for others. If others find a gauge to be inaccurate they can say so. In many cases it could be improperly used or calibrated. Most have a variance of 1%-5% so it is very possible you can take 10 readings of the same spot, measured in microns, and get numbers that vary by as much as 10+.
 
Nth Degree said:
Just to point out; an opinion was asked for. If you don't have one it is in poor form to take it upon yourself to speak for others. If others find a gauge to be inaccurate they can say so. In many cases it could be improperly used or calibrated. Most have a variance of 1%-5% so it is very possible you can take 10 readings of the same spot, measured in microns, and get numbers that vary by as much as 10+.
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Well i don't really think every review/reviewer I've read over the years would come here to give their opinion, so I passed along what I've seen, but i get what you're saying. I just find it funny how it's one particular person who wants to say something to ME every chance he gets. I'm sure if I was agreeing with him constantly, my post would've been passed over like nothing.



Anyway, thanks for your well written feedback.
 
Nth Degree said:
Just to point out; an opinion was asked for. If you don't have one it is in poor form to take it upon yourself to speak for others. If others find a gauge to be inaccurate they can say so. In many cases it could be improperly used or calibrated. Most have a variance of 1%-5% so it is very possible you can take 10 readings of the same spot, measured in microns, and get numbers that vary by as much as 10+.
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Agreed. One of the things I love about this forum is the amount of firsthand experience. I'm sure we all agree that hearsay isn't a benefit to anyone.



That said this discussion reminds me of radar detectors. There is a good percentage of the population that believe they don't work. And yet others get great results with them.
 
Dan has already pointed out how negative your posts are. Here was another one. I guess it is a pattern for you. I wonder why you didn't say how so many pros use it, it must be an important tool. Trust me, we all have an opinion. But at least be familiar with the product.



you are probably correct, a gauge that is accurate is a valuable tool, I didn't say otherwise.
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It IS an accurate tool. I guess you already made up your mind that the PMG is not one.



Do you think maybe one day you can post a positive reply or start a thread that is positive in nature? Pretty please? :D:D:D
 
I have the HighLine Meter II. The accuracy of that meter is + (3% +2 um) or + (3% +.1 mils). At 130 microns, that's an error range of nearly 6 um. Lets say you measure a spot and get a reading of 130. Then you do some compounding and take another measurement and it reads 125. Does that mean you've removed 5 microns? Based on the error range of the meter, no not necessarily. In addition, the measurements would have to be taken in the EXACT same spot.

TOGWT said:
The following are the maximum allowable clear coat reductions the major USA car manufacturers will allow before the paint warranty becomes void; Chrysler- 0.5 Mil (12µ) Ford – 0.3 Mil (7.5 µ) GM – 0.5 Mil (12µ) (Source - Automotive International)
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What if the paint has already been sanded and compounded and the previous detailer already removed 8 microns. Will a paint meter be able to tell you that? Probably not if your readings are still within a normal range and consistent.



Using a paint meter for finding repaints is useful. But lets say the front fender was damaged, replaced with an OEM one, and repainted by a body shop that knows what they're doing. You aren't aware of the cars history and all the measurements you take are consistent throughout the whole car....



Like Charlie said...

"A PTG is only as good as the operator and how they utilize/interpret the measurements it gives them."
 
Thomas Dekany said:
Dan has already pointed out how negative your posts are. Here was another one. I guess it is a pattern for you. I wonder why you didn't say how so many pros use it, it must be an important tool. Trust me, we all have an opinion. But at least be familiar with the product.







It IS an accurate tool. I guess you already made up your mind that the PMG is not one.



Do you think maybe one day you can post a positive reply or start a thread that is positive in nature? Pretty please? :D:D:D
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I am positive about the positive aspects of what I'm responding about, and negative about the negative aspects. I think that goes with anyone. If I was just always positive, others might think I'm a paid spokesman or something. But, I should have explained myself further in the thread, so my apologies for lighting that fire.
 
Dan said:
Agreed. One of the things I love about this forum is the amount of firsthand experience. I'm sure we all agree that hearsay isn't a benefit to anyone.



That said this discussion reminds me of radar detectors. There is a good percentage of the population that believe they don't work. And yet others get great results with them.
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Having personally used many different ones, I can say they pretty much all work (haven't tried the cheapy ones) but some are definitely more accurate and work better than others, for example, the V1 is IMO the best out there. But let's not deter this thread into a radar comparison thread.
 
I bought a High-Line for 3 reasons:



1. Look more professional

2. Give my customers confidence

3. Save me time and my customers money



Accuracy means nothing to me. I use it as a generalization and to help inform the customer of paint levels they may not know of. Paint readings can be different between cars, makes, models, etc. I have a 1996 Corolla that I get 120um readings on and has clear coat failure all over it. Yet my 325xi BMW has lower readings in some areas with outstanding looking paint.



If I run into a situation where readings are low I can suggest a light polish and good glaze, vs a correction job that may break through clear. It can also help you find repaints, which render readings useless as others have mentioned primers/etc. However, it shows you're not just there to take the money, but take care of the customer, IMO anyway.



I just detailed a M3 today that had been repainted. I asked the owner if the car had been repainted before, and I was able to point out the spots and that I was sure they painted the passenger side fender at least twice. After finding repainted areas, I was also able to point out the bad paint job he got. Although I did no correction, I'm sure he now feels confident that I'm willing to take the extra step to not only inform him, but protect him in the future.



For $200, after 3 months it's cheaper than my liability insurance and can save me from having to file an insurance claim. And customers seem to love it.
 
smoknfastlegend said:
Experience does play a role, but you kinda have to visual paint as a wild animal, as its behavior can be unpredictable even when you think you understand it.
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I love this statement. I have never heard paint described like this but i can certainly relate. Sorry I have nothing to offer this thread other than to say that I have gotten through 5 years of paint correction without a coatings thickness meter and without any strike throughs. Now I've had a few burns but I don't think a coatings thickness meter would have helped there.:think:
 
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