What am I doing wrong? 7424

Yeah, fortunately I have some extra panels to practice on. My camaro hood is in pretty rough shape regardless, there is clear coat failure on the other side and some pretty deep gouges which are down to the metal. So a respray or new hood is in the cards one day down the road. So I will be able to practice on that once I use the other panels. The rest of the car just has a lot of rids and a TON of swirls.
 
Got a chance to try out the makita rotary today. I spent some time on an extra panel getting a feel for the rotary, I worked on picking up the bead with a wool panel. Fooled around with that for an hour and then I moved on to the spoiler of my camaro. I tried Menz SIP with the wool pad and it did not seem to do much so I moved on to 105. I ended up trying 105 two times, I noticed the 105 left more hazing/maring? behind, while the SIP did not. After the 105 I moved down to an orange pad with 105. Finally I went down to white with the 205. I noticed that a lot of the tight swirling is gone, but I guess I left some bigger swirling with the machine polish. Not sure where to go from here, it still looks pretty bad. How much pressure am I suppose to apply? I made sure to check the panel to see how hot it was after every use. It was a little warm, but I could rest my hand on it with out even thinking twice.
 
If you haven't read through this how-to article, maybe give it a read through and see if you find something that you might be missing...



Tips and Techniques for using the PC 7424XP Dual Action Polisher









The above article is actually a reversed version of another article I posted in 2007, this was about a year after coming out with the "How to get show car results using a PC" DVD that Richard Lin and I shot in 2006





Here's the original article I wrote and posted to MOL



After teaching hundreds of classes here at Meguiar's, there are some common mistakes most people make when trying to remove swirls and scratches with a dual action polisher. Most of them have to do with technique.









Here's a list of the most common problems

  1. Trying to work too large of an area at one time.
  2. Move the polisher too fast over the surface.
  3. Too low of speed setting for removing swirls.
  4. Too little pressure on the head of the unit.
  5. Too much pressure on the head of the unit so the pad quits rotating.
  6. Not keeping the pad flat while working your product.
  7. Too much product, too little product.
  8. Not cleaning the pad often enough.
Here's a list of the solutions in matching order,

  1. Shrink your work area down, the harder the paint the smaller the area you can work. The average area should be and average of about 16" by 16" up to 20" by 20" or so. You have to do some experimenting, (called a Test Spot), to find out how easy or how hard the defects are coming out of your car's paint system and then adjust your work area to the results of your Test Spot.
  2. For removing defects out of the paint you want to use what we call a Slow Arm Speed. It's really easy to move the polisher too quickly because the sound of the motor spinning fast has a psychological effect to for some reason want to make people move the polisher fast. Also the way most people think is that, "If I move the polisher quickly, I'll get done faster", but it doesn't work that way.
  3. When first starting out many people are scared of burning or swirling their paint, so they take the safe route of running the polisher at too low of a speed setting, again... this won't work. The action of the polisher is already g-e-n-t-l-e, you need the speed and specifically the pad rotating over the paint as well as the combination of time, (slow arm speed), together with the diminishing abrasives, the foam type, and the pressure to remove small particles of paint which is how your remove below surface defects like swirls or scratches. It's a leveling process that's somewhat difficult because the tool is safe/gentle while in most cases, modern clear coat paints are harder than traditional single stage paints and this makes them hard to work on. This is also why people get frustrated, they don't understand paint technology, all they know is their paint swirls easy and getting the swirls out is difficult and thus frustrating.
  4. For the same reason as stated in #3, people are scared, or perhaps a better word is apprehensive, to apply too much pressure and the result of too little pressure is no paint is removed thus no swirls are removed.
  5. Just the opposite of item #4, people think that by pushing harder on the polisher they can work faster and be more aggressive, but the truth is the clutch in the tool is a safety mechanism to prevent burning and will cause the pad to stop rotating, thus less cleaning or abrading action and once in a while this will lead a person to then post on the forum something like this, "Hey my pad doesn't rotate". There needs to be a balance of enough pressure to remove defects and keep the pad rotating but yet not too much pressure as to stop the rotating action. This balance is affected by a lot of things, things like type of chemical, some chemicals provide more lubrication and the pad will spin easier, curved surfaces or any raise in body lines will tend to stop the pad from rotating. This is where experience on how to address these areas comes into play or you do the best you can and move on. It's not a perfect tool, nor a perfect system, but it's almost always better than working/cleaning by hand.
  6. Applying pressure in such a way as to put too much pressure to one side of the pad will cause it to stop rotating and thus decrease cleaning ability.
  7. Too much product over lubricates the surface and this won't allow the diminishing abrasives to do their job plus it will increase the potential for messy splatter as well as cause pad saturation. Too little product will keep the pad from rotating due to no lubrication and there won't be enough diminishing abrasives to do any work. Again it's a balance that comes with experience, or another way of saying this would be it's a balance that comes with hours of buffing out a car to learn what to do and what not to do. Information like what you're reading here is just an edge to decrease your learning curve. Hope this is helping.
  8. Most people don't clean their pad often enough and most of the time the reason for this is because they don't know they're supposed to clean their pad often and they don't know how to clean their pad. Again, that's why this forum is here to help you with both of these things. You should clean your pad after every application of product or every other application of product, your choice, most of the time cleaning your pad after every other application of product works pretty well. It enables you to work clean and enables the foam pad, the polisher and the next application of fresh product too all work effectively. How to clean your pad will be addressed below sooner versus later, but not at the time of this posting. (Sorry, I'm behind a keyboard, not a video camera

The first 4 are the most common. Can't tell you how many times we hear a comment like this from someone in the garage after demonstrating the correct technique
Click to expand...





For what it's worth, the nickname for the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light is "Cruel Master", it's hard to satisfy 100% with all paint systems.





:)
 
Thanks Mike, I have a ton of your stuff already bookmarked. I have a lot of the guides over at Autogeek. I still seem to be having trouble though. Here are some pics from the spoiler after a try with a makita rotary...



This is after



Megs 105 wool

Megs 105 orange

Megs 205 white



IMG_1040.jpg




Different angle you can still see a few swirls...

IMG_1041.jpg




How do I get rid of this?

IMG_1042.jpg




I guess that does look a lot better, once I get the hologram in the last pic out it will look even better. Maybe I am just expecting too much of myself? I worked on a section of the Mercedes again. Same process as above, it looks good, I could find a hologram if my eyes were almost dead even with the level of the trunk. I am not sure how to remove it, its so faint, but I know its there.
 
its hard for me to imagine that a 2000 car has a harder clear, maybe repainted? How clogged up are your pads? I just did the 99 corvette and it cleaned up really easy compared to what you are experiencing



anyway,



try 105 on wool (which wool are you using?)

then 105 on orange via PC speed 6

then 205 on white via pc speed 6

then a finishing polish on a blue pad with PC spd 6



also, try this:



polish out a brand new section with 105 and orange on the PC. Once you have worked that section, wipe off what you can of the 105 residue WITHOUT any aid (no QD, no IPA, nothing). Then switch your pad to the white and some 205 and go right over the top of the 105 area and see how that goes!



ALMOST all of my correction comes from the PC. you can look through all my C&B's and the only time I really use the rotary is on some really stubborn jobs! I just did a 99 corvette that cleaned up pretty easy, so like I said, hard to imagine your car is that hard!
 
Thanks for the reply, how often should a pad be cleaned? Also, is it ever too cold to be doing this, I don't wanna mess anything up.



Edit, just tried what you suggested toyotaguy, so so results, I still have a lot of swirling.
 
Hello there,



If you have access to a rotary and you have scrap metal...it doesn't hurt to learn. I learned on a rotary and have just recently started to use the PC a bit. Try the rotary out on some of your scrap metal..see if it removes those swirls for you...then come back over the rotary work with the PC to remove the hollograms. Once you get comfortable on the scrap metal..try it on your own car.



If you can master the rotary (be patient), paint correction will seem a bit easier.



Good luck!
 
how much pressure are you using? should compress the pad enough, but not to the point where it bogs down the PC. you might just need more passes of 105 and orange pad - all on spd 6 as there is no reason for less! (5 will just create a mess for you to clean up)



you want to remove all the defects with the compound, then refine the finish with the following polishes. If a compound isnt removing the defect, a polish certainly wont either



I would almost say you need to let someone else get it right, and you maintain it from there!
 
I dunno, it is getting pretty frustrating. I keep trying all of these different things, maybe I need more passes of 105. I have watched many videos and read many how to videos. I have followed these guides pretty closely, so I am doing something wrong. Getting someone else to do it isn't in the cards. I have had most of my detailing stuff for two years give or take. I just got the 105/205. I just graduated college, have no money, no job prospects so I don't think I can pay anyone lol. I have the free time, at least this gives me something to do.
 
My best advice:



1. Keep your pads clean. Very very important, even if it is a pain.

2. Use very little polish.

3. Keep your work area small. Mine is usally about 1'x1'

4. Use 4" pads.





I have also learned that on occaisions, I get better results if I dial down to speed 5 or so.



You may need to go back over and do another hit of 105. If you are dealing with

serious damage, you may not be able to get all the swirls out with one application of 105.
 
motoo344 said:
Here are some pics from the spoiler after a try with a makita rotary...



This is after



Megs 105 wool

Megs 105 orange

Megs 205 white







Different angle you can still see a few swirls...





How do I get rid of this?

IMG_1042.jpg
Click to expand...



At this point, after the Rotary Buffer work you want to switch over to the M205 with either a polishing pad or a finishing pad on the speed setting 5.0



Make about 4 section passes to an area about 20" squarish or so and then make another 2-3 section passes only reduce your downward pressure.



You should always have a wet film of product on the surface as you're working the M205



Then wipe of the residue gently and inspect.







motoo344 said:
how often should a pad be cleaned?
Click to expand...



If it's hot and I'm doing heavy compounding I'll clean my wool pads on the rotary after each application of new product. Makes the job take longer but makes the working of the product easier and produces better results.



With a DA Polisher or Flex 3401 I'll tend to clean my pads every other application of product. For example, buff a section. Wipe off residue from paint and move onto new section applying fresh product to pad. After that section clean pads either using a clean, 100% cotton terry cloth towel or using a pad washer.



motoo344 said:
Also, is it ever too cold to be doing this, I don't wanna mess anything up.
Click to expand...



Something I originally wrote back in 2004!



What temperature ranges are best for applying cleaners, polishes, and waxes



Hard to believe that was 6 years ago now...





motoo344 said:
Edit, just tried what you suggested toyotaguy, so so results, I still have a lot of swirling.
Click to expand...



Can you rub a microfiber against the paint and easily scratch it and swirl it?



:)
 
motoo344 said:
Define little polish, I see so many different things. Thanks.
Click to expand...



I prime the pads ala KBM (fully primed, but not clogging the pores) and then I add just a few relatively tiny dots of polish, which I postion evenly around the pad.



DO NOT clog the pores. Distribute the product as evenly as possible.



Mike Phillips said:
For what it's worth, the nickname for the Brinkmann Swirl Finder Light is "Cruel Master", it's hard to satisfy 100% with all paint systems.
Click to expand...



Well, the Brinkman is a whole lot more forgiving than the 3M SunGun ;)
 
Mike Phillips said:
If the Brinkmann is the Cruel Master, what's that make the 3M Sun Gun?





:)
Click to expand...



Yeah...that reminds me of our phone conversation* last year where you were (good-naturedly) giving me some :rolleyes: about over-the-top inspections.



IIRC, you called the SunGun a "cruel mistress" and as they say, the female is the more deadly of the species :chuckle: One could even argue that the SunGun is a *psychotically* cruel one.



It's possible to take this "Autopian" stuff to the point where it's simply goofy, huh? One of those Curses of Autopia I often warn people about, even if I don't always take my own advice. Life is not a car show.



*(Off-topic, but I keep forgetting: Did anybody ever figure out what was up with that gallon of too-watery M205 I sent back? Thanks for helping with that.)
 
motoo344 said:
I was seriously considering trying to start my own little business because I am just out of college and have no idea what I want to do with my life. I have always had an interest in working with cars and running my own business. I had some experience when me and a buddy started an independent record label a few years ago. However, my experience with paint correction has made me seriously reconsider, I seem to be able to grasp everything else but this.
Click to expand...



OK - don't get frustrated about your struggles. The first few cars I "polished", I did nothing more than spread some polish around. This is a lot like golf or cooking....practice and research (understanding theory) are key to success. Any good pro on here can recite product lines, and tell you what type of abraisive they are, and which type paints they work best on. All of that comes with time, practice, and doing your homework.



The best advice I can give you is to not start a detailing business because you like cars and want to "find yourself". If you do this, you will probably fail (by autopian standards). You may make some money....and there are always those clients that only care that the car is shiney, and could care less about defect removal, but you will be in trouble if you run into a client that is particular, and understands paint correction themself.



Just to give you an idea, I carry over 50 polishes / compounds, 2 rotaries, 2 PCs, and a Flex, along with over 40 pad types to every job. I also understand my products and tools well enough to be able to maneuver through tricky situations. The last thing I want is to not be able to correct a certain type of paint in front of a picky client. I would tell you that most pros on here could have a test section on your F body looking almost perfect within 30 minutes.



I don't say this in to make you feel bad, I say it to make you realize that you have a long way to go before you should try to start a detailing business doing paint correction...also, I would hate to see you damage a vehicle, then get trashed by the owner on a site like this.



My point is not to discourage you from starting a detailing business. My point is to encourage you to do it for the right reasons, and to try to convince you to make sure you are well equipped and have adequate experience if you do decide to do it. Get with as many good pros in your area as you can. Offer to help them for free. If there aren't any near you, travel to one. It may cost you money to get to them, but it is money you are investing in your education and possible future career.
 
Just a guess on my part, but it seems like the clearcoat you are trying to correct is not the original because of the pits in it. I have never heard of factory clearcoat with that kind of a defect. If that's true then the only thing you know for sure is that it's rock hard. The hardest clearcoat I know of is CeramiClear made by PPG for Mercedes about 2003. Other similar products are DuPonts SupraShield, and PPGs Optech. Menzerna developed compounds and polishes specifically for these clears containing nano ceramic particles with a higher abrasive content. There is more info on this at "http://www.detailingwiki.com/index.php5?title=Polishing_ -_ Menzerna_ Polishes"
 
One more thing - if the clearcoat you are trying to correct was applied over the original is it possible that the swirls etc you are trying to correct are actually in the clearcoat BELOW the coat you are working on?
 
As someone who plays golf I should have thought of it like that in the first place lol. When I said I wanted to start a business, I was not talking about rushing into it. It will probably be a weekend hobby for a while, definitely a lot to learn. I was thinking of asking friends and family because we only have so many cars here. Is that how a lot of people start?
 
Pay to have someone look at it for you...maybe not detail the whole thing, but maybe do a test section to see whats going on, get it right, and leave you to match it...worth a shot!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top