C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
Ron Ketcham said:
By movement of the substrate, I assume you mean panel flex due to excessive downward pressure applied by the operator during the sanding and buffing procedure?
Wetsanding and buffing fresh paint
- Thread starter transamfan
- Start date
By movement of the substrate, I assume you mean panel flex due to excessive downward pressure applied by the operator during the sanding and buffing procedure?
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Ron Ketcham said:
Hi Ron. Glad you got my PM and thanks for your input. I totally understand the different quirks/characterists among the refinish manufacturers and their lines. Some good...and some not so good.
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
Not sure if the substrate he's referring to is the panel(metal) or the base(color) or primer. He is referring to soft clears so if that's the case you can actually create waviness in your clear from buffing too? Can I get some more feedback on this Ron?
Accumulator
Well-known member
transamfan said:
I'd much rather do the final sanding with something *MUCH* milder if using a DA to remove the sanding scratches. 4K is a piece of cake; 3K is easy enough; 2K starts to get a little demanding but is perfectly doable; coarser than that...well...I'd rather not do it that way, but that's just me.
JohnKleven
New member
You can also create waviness in the clearcoat by using a D.A. for sanding. When going back and forth in the same area, you can create low spots on the end of the stroke. Similar to painting something, if you have are spraying and going back and forth without turning the paint off at the end of each stroke you can get runs on both ends, and looks something like this. |------| when painting. Using a block will prevent this from happening.
John
John
Ron Ketcham
Active member
By "Substrate", I am referring to the total paint film build it's self. Wether the acid etch primer, surface primer, base coat or single stage, clear, all have different curing times, and while may appear to be "dry or cured", may not actually be.
This may create the condition I was referring to.
This may create the condition I was referring to.
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
JohnKleven said:
I'd have to agree with John on the long block sanding doing a better job than a DA at leveling off the paint. It takes a lot more time and may not be suitable for all panels shapes, but when time is not an issue and I want the paint to be as flat as can be, I will use a block by hand as much as possible.
I do like to finish it off with the DA though and on most my jobs I'll just reach for the DA.
Trying out the Mirka Abranet Soft right now....me likey! Thanks BuffDaddy!
Barry Theal
New member
Rasky I have been through alot of different sanding abrasives in the last few months. First trizact and then norton and now I'm on the Mirka set up as well and love it! Great for DA use. I'm with you for sure on the block sanding by handing though.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
JohnKleven said:
Waviness? Maybe a variance in orange peel/flatness, but I don't see how you can create waviness in clear from a using DA? We're talking a difference in thinkness of probably less than 5 microns. Something this minute can't even be detected with your eye. OTOH, when doing body work, yes. Most painters hand sand. Even usually on blend panels, but we're talking thicknesses that are visable.
Kevin Brown
New member
Now we're talking.... THIS is an autopia thread!!!
Leveling in the sanding world means to minimize variances in the high and low spots of the sanded surface. The more level the surface, the more accurate a reflection will be. This is easy to see in a typical swimming pool. If there's nothing disturbing the water, then the reflection will be pretty accurate. If the wind kicks up or someone is in the pool splashing about, the reflection is not as accurate.
I think this is understood by most folks. Orange peel removal isn't what we're discussing, but rather, creating a consistently leveled surface across a long range or large area is the goal.
I agree that hard blocks, or long blocks, typically excel for leveling.
There are specific and logical reasons for this.
In theory we could replicate similar results using a random orbital sander, but man, you'd have to be really good with a machine to do it. Plus, you'd have to be open to the idea of making a customized backing plate and interface pad.
Let's get to the fun stuff, and cover some basics for the guys that are somewhat new to this.
A sanding block or backing plate that is hard can also be flexible.
Materials such as balsa wood, plexiglass, glass, steel, and aluminum are hard. I have personally used, seen other guys use, or heard of other guys using these materials to make sanding pads.
Poke any of these materials with a sharpened pencil and the lead will break with ease, leaving the materials unaffected, or only marginally affected. This assumes there is enough thickness to withstand the assault, and most sanding blocks or backing plates are thick enough.
If the material is thin, it has the potential to flex, bend, or twist.
With the exception of glass, I think most of the listed materials will bend or twist with relative ease. As an example and to give you a visual, a typical metal ruler can bend or twist, yet handle the onslaught of a poke from a pencil lead. In fact, if you wrapped a sheet of sanding paper around a flexible metal ruler, you'd have the makings of a simple yet effective sanding block!
If we decided to use a thin steel ruler as a sanding block, we certainly could. Ideally, we would glue a long foam block onto the back of the ruler, and use the block as a handle or gripping area. For the sake of discussion, let's continue on with this idea.
We could use PSA (peel and stick adhesive) sanding sheets, or cut an appropriate length of sandpaper from a sanding roll and attach it to the ruler. I personally haven't seen too many varieties of paper at the higher grades we are discussing, so we must improvise.
We could use a thin coating of spray glue to attach sandpaper sheets to the ruler, or attach lengths of paper via duct tape, and glue that to the ruler. Of course, the paper should be trimmed to the width of the ruler, and it would be critical that the individual sheets of paper be positioned to tight tolerances in relation to each other- no overhang, no large gaps.
Note: readily available long blocks feature clamping systems that allows us to attach lengths of sandpaper to the block at each end. Other blocks are hook and loop compatible, while still others are smooth faced to easily accept PSA style papers.
Once we found the best way to mount the paper to our ruler, we could use any length ruler as a hard but flexible sanding block. 12", 18", 24", 36", and even 48" rulers are readily available.
By using the longest ruler that would work on our sanding project, we could affect a whole lot of peaks at once, and level them to the same overall height. These areas, when polished, would reflect in tandem. Even if we didn't completely remove all of the orange peel, we would still see a more accurate reflection across the surface.
A sanding block or backing plate that is soft will more readily contour to the nuances of a surface.
If we took our ruler block and mounted a thin piece of foam to the sanding side of the ruler and then attached the sandpaper the foam, it's almost guaranteed that we would not be able to level the surface to the same degree as a ruler without the foam.
But, if we wish to make our sanding job easier to accomplish... or if we're working on panels that do not allow us to use ruler-length sanding blocks... or if we would rather not create a laser-level surface... or if the surface needed sanding only to remove very fine texturing and dirt nibs (including dirt in the lower lying levels of an orange peeled texture), then we would probably be happier using a sanding block featuring resiliency, squishiness, and conformability.
This is why most hand sanding blocks are short and soft.
Human hands aren't all that long either, so there's a bit of logic behind the sizing.
With all this being said: Could a DA machine outfitted with a sanding disc level as well as hand sanding?
Certainly, but only as good as an equal length hand block, and the block would have to feature the same characteristics (hardness, stiffness, cushioning, etc.)
In other words, if we are sanding with a 6" diameter disc and using a machine featuring a 5/16" stroke, then our sanding disc will effectively level an area measuring 6-5/16" in diameter. This assumes we don't move the machine at all, but instead hold it in place as it runs.
If we removed the disc from the backing plate and placed it onto a hand sanding pad made of the same material as the backing plate, and then moved the hand pad no more than 5/16" in a back and forth pattern that mimicked the movement made by a DA sander, we would create a very similar sanding result.
But, if we happened to be using a backing plate or hand pad that offered cushioning, resiliency, or contourability, the machine would likely offer up a bit more leveling ability.
Simply put, if the machine moved the sanding disc at a higher rate of speed than your hand could, there would be less time available for the pad to adjust its position in relation to the paint surface. To more easily understand this, imagine driving over a very bumpy road at 5 MPH, and then again at 50 MPH. There's simply not as much time for the suspension to react to the bumps, so the tires would likely not be as well planted as you traveled across the bumps.
Oh man, this is a lot to write in a hurry... I hope it is making sense so far.
I'm gonna go ahead post this, then add some diagrams on the next post.
Leveling in the sanding world means to minimize variances in the high and low spots of the sanded surface. The more level the surface, the more accurate a reflection will be. This is easy to see in a typical swimming pool. If there's nothing disturbing the water, then the reflection will be pretty accurate. If the wind kicks up or someone is in the pool splashing about, the reflection is not as accurate.
I think this is understood by most folks. Orange peel removal isn't what we're discussing, but rather, creating a consistently leveled surface across a long range or large area is the goal.
I agree that hard blocks, or long blocks, typically excel for leveling.
There are specific and logical reasons for this.
In theory we could replicate similar results using a random orbital sander, but man, you'd have to be really good with a machine to do it. Plus, you'd have to be open to the idea of making a customized backing plate and interface pad.
Let's get to the fun stuff, and cover some basics for the guys that are somewhat new to this.
A sanding block or backing plate that is hard can also be flexible.
Materials such as balsa wood, plexiglass, glass, steel, and aluminum are hard. I have personally used, seen other guys use, or heard of other guys using these materials to make sanding pads.
Poke any of these materials with a sharpened pencil and the lead will break with ease, leaving the materials unaffected, or only marginally affected. This assumes there is enough thickness to withstand the assault, and most sanding blocks or backing plates are thick enough.
If the material is thin, it has the potential to flex, bend, or twist.
With the exception of glass, I think most of the listed materials will bend or twist with relative ease. As an example and to give you a visual, a typical metal ruler can bend or twist, yet handle the onslaught of a poke from a pencil lead. In fact, if you wrapped a sheet of sanding paper around a flexible metal ruler, you'd have the makings of a simple yet effective sanding block!
If we decided to use a thin steel ruler as a sanding block, we certainly could. Ideally, we would glue a long foam block onto the back of the ruler, and use the block as a handle or gripping area. For the sake of discussion, let's continue on with this idea.
We could use PSA (peel and stick adhesive) sanding sheets, or cut an appropriate length of sandpaper from a sanding roll and attach it to the ruler. I personally haven't seen too many varieties of paper at the higher grades we are discussing, so we must improvise.
We could use a thin coating of spray glue to attach sandpaper sheets to the ruler, or attach lengths of paper via duct tape, and glue that to the ruler. Of course, the paper should be trimmed to the width of the ruler, and it would be critical that the individual sheets of paper be positioned to tight tolerances in relation to each other- no overhang, no large gaps.
Note: readily available long blocks feature clamping systems that allows us to attach lengths of sandpaper to the block at each end. Other blocks are hook and loop compatible, while still others are smooth faced to easily accept PSA style papers.
Once we found the best way to mount the paper to our ruler, we could use any length ruler as a hard but flexible sanding block. 12", 18", 24", 36", and even 48" rulers are readily available.
By using the longest ruler that would work on our sanding project, we could affect a whole lot of peaks at once, and level them to the same overall height. These areas, when polished, would reflect in tandem. Even if we didn't completely remove all of the orange peel, we would still see a more accurate reflection across the surface.
A sanding block or backing plate that is soft will more readily contour to the nuances of a surface.
If we took our ruler block and mounted a thin piece of foam to the sanding side of the ruler and then attached the sandpaper the foam, it's almost guaranteed that we would not be able to level the surface to the same degree as a ruler without the foam.
But, if we wish to make our sanding job easier to accomplish... or if we're working on panels that do not allow us to use ruler-length sanding blocks... or if we would rather not create a laser-level surface... or if the surface needed sanding only to remove very fine texturing and dirt nibs (including dirt in the lower lying levels of an orange peeled texture), then we would probably be happier using a sanding block featuring resiliency, squishiness, and conformability.
This is why most hand sanding blocks are short and soft.
Human hands aren't all that long either, so there's a bit of logic behind the sizing.
With all this being said: Could a DA machine outfitted with a sanding disc level as well as hand sanding?
Certainly, but only as good as an equal length hand block, and the block would have to feature the same characteristics (hardness, stiffness, cushioning, etc.)
In other words, if we are sanding with a 6" diameter disc and using a machine featuring a 5/16" stroke, then our sanding disc will effectively level an area measuring 6-5/16" in diameter. This assumes we don't move the machine at all, but instead hold it in place as it runs.
If we removed the disc from the backing plate and placed it onto a hand sanding pad made of the same material as the backing plate, and then moved the hand pad no more than 5/16" in a back and forth pattern that mimicked the movement made by a DA sander, we would create a very similar sanding result.
But, if we happened to be using a backing plate or hand pad that offered cushioning, resiliency, or contourability, the machine would likely offer up a bit more leveling ability.
Simply put, if the machine moved the sanding disc at a higher rate of speed than your hand could, there would be less time available for the pad to adjust its position in relation to the paint surface. To more easily understand this, imagine driving over a very bumpy road at 5 MPH, and then again at 50 MPH. There's simply not as much time for the suspension to react to the bumps, so the tires would likely not be as well planted as you traveled across the bumps.
Oh man, this is a lot to write in a hurry... I hope it is making sense so far.
I'm gonna go ahead post this, then add some diagrams on the next post.
Kevin Brown
New member
O-kay.
Some diagrams that may help, and more discussion.
If you want to see a clearer shot of it, I have a pdf version on my site:
Machine Stroke- How It Affects Sanding and Polishing Performance
The diagram is on page 9.
I don't usually link it because it is a site that sells stuff.
MODS- if I am not supposed to put a link, feel free to remove it.
The type of backing material a sheet or disc features can also affect leveling.
To be clear, the backing is the piece of material that the sanding media is attached to.
Several types of backing materials are used to make backings for discs, and the type of material is a BIG deal in terms of how the disc performs.
In general... if we have two discs featuring identical backings, except one has a backing that is thicker than the other, and we are using a backing plate that is soft and cushiony:
The disc with the thinner backing will level to a lower degree, but contour to a higher degree.
The disc with the thicker backing will level to a higher degree, but contour to a lesser degree.
The harder the backing plate, the less of an issue backing thickness becomes.
Now, here's where things get a bit tricky.
Some discs feature a piece of foam placed between the backing material and the attachment material. Most times, the foam increases contourability at the expense of leveling ability. But really, the characteristics of the sanding disc's backing determines how much an effect the foam has on sanding.
Super thick and stiff backing?
The disc may flex well, and follow curves and complex panel shapes, but it may not contour to every nuance of the surface, such as orange peel.
Super thin and pliable backing?
The disc may follow every nuance of the surface and follow curves and complex panel shapes, but may not level the paint surface.
What if machine speed is maximized?
The effects of foam may be minimized.
Check out these discs featuring foam:
Mirka Abralon:
Tremendous contouring ability, wide range of grades. These are a kick to use, can be used at high or low speed. for me, low speed is better because the sanding pattern is smooth, and the abrasive particles stay attached to the disc longer. Higher speed offer a tiny bit more leveling, and can keep the disc cleaner, as rotational forces fling debris from the disc more readily than slow speeds.
Magnified shot:
Mirka Abranet Soft:
Excellent contouring ability at low speed, fantastic leveling ability at high speed. Compared to discs that use paper or film backings, the net material allows water to pass through (like treads on a tire. So, you can sand with water, use higher speed if desired, yet hydroplaning is not an issue.
Magnified shots:
Meguiar's Unigrit 3000 Foam Finishing Disc:
Unmatched finishing capability... it's like having thousands of super soft abrasive squeegees gliding across the paint! Virtually no ability to level, but at this point, you should be refining the surface to shorten buffing time rather than worrying about additional leveling.
Some diagrams comparing film, net, and cloth backed discs. These are also on my site, and are clickable.
When should Abralon be your first choice?
All about Mirka's Net Mesh technology.
About film or paper backed discs:
Film or paper backed discs generally feature maximum leveling potential, but when used with water, they tend to float or hydroplane rather easily. This leads to inconsistent sanding results, as some areas may be sanded perfectly while others are barely affected by the sanding disc. Once the water is displaced, the disc, oftentimes spinning at a rapid clip (due to a lack of frictional resistance) makes a crash landing atop the paint surface. This leads to pig-tailing, gouging, or scouring.
I hope this info didn't miss the mark, or stray too far from it.
I find this all to be so interesting, and there are lots of things to consider.
The biggest thing that limits our ability to use hard-backed backing plates has to do with user technique. If while sanding we happen to tilt the machine even slightly off kilter, the edge of the disc can dig into the paint. This can create some pretty dastardly sanding marks, especially if we're using coarse grades of discs. That's why most backing plates made for sanding discs tend to be soft and pliable.
Now... think you're pretty good at handling a machine?
Why not make your own backing plate/interface pad combo?
Get a stiff backing plate, and attach a foam interface pad to it. Then, get ahold of a piece of Plexiglas, cut it to the size of the disc, and attach Velcro® hook material to both sides. Slap on your disc of choice, and get to sanding!
The foam interface would help to minimize user-applied tilt variances, so if you happened to get the machine a bit off kilter, the interface would compensate for it. This setup would be ideal for flat panels, but terrible for curved or complex shaped panels.
That's all I've got! For now...
Some diagrams that may help, and more discussion.
This one compares a long block to a short and long stroke sander.
If you want to see a clearer shot of it, I have a pdf version on my site:
Machine Stroke- How It Affects Sanding and Polishing Performance
The diagram is on page 9.
I don't usually link it because it is a site that sells stuff.
MODS- if I am not supposed to put a link, feel free to remove it.
The type of backing material a sheet or disc features can also affect leveling.
To be clear, the backing is the piece of material that the sanding media is attached to.
Several types of backing materials are used to make backings for discs, and the type of material is a BIG deal in terms of how the disc performs.
In general... if we have two discs featuring identical backings, except one has a backing that is thicker than the other, and we are using a backing plate that is soft and cushiony:
The disc with the thinner backing will level to a lower degree, but contour to a higher degree.
The disc with the thicker backing will level to a higher degree, but contour to a lesser degree.
The harder the backing plate, the less of an issue backing thickness becomes.
Now, here's where things get a bit tricky.
Some discs feature a piece of foam placed between the backing material and the attachment material. Most times, the foam increases contourability at the expense of leveling ability. But really, the characteristics of the sanding disc's backing determines how much an effect the foam has on sanding.
Super thick and stiff backing?
The disc may flex well, and follow curves and complex panel shapes, but it may not contour to every nuance of the surface, such as orange peel.
Super thin and pliable backing?
The disc may follow every nuance of the surface and follow curves and complex panel shapes, but may not level the paint surface.
What if machine speed is maximized?
The effects of foam may be minimized.
Check out these discs featuring foam:
Mirka Abralon:
Tremendous contouring ability, wide range of grades. These are a kick to use, can be used at high or low speed. for me, low speed is better because the sanding pattern is smooth, and the abrasive particles stay attached to the disc longer. Higher speed offer a tiny bit more leveling, and can keep the disc cleaner, as rotational forces fling debris from the disc more readily than slow speeds.
Magnified shot:
Mirka Abranet Soft:
Excellent contouring ability at low speed, fantastic leveling ability at high speed. Compared to discs that use paper or film backings, the net material allows water to pass through (like treads on a tire. So, you can sand with water, use higher speed if desired, yet hydroplaning is not an issue.
Magnified shots:
Meguiar's Unigrit 3000 Foam Finishing Disc:
Unmatched finishing capability... it's like having thousands of super soft abrasive squeegees gliding across the paint! Virtually no ability to level, but at this point, you should be refining the surface to shorten buffing time rather than worrying about additional leveling.
Some diagrams comparing film, net, and cloth backed discs. These are also on my site, and are clickable.
When should Abralon be your first choice?
All about Mirka's Net Mesh technology.
About film or paper backed discs:
Film or paper backed discs generally feature maximum leveling potential, but when used with water, they tend to float or hydroplane rather easily. This leads to inconsistent sanding results, as some areas may be sanded perfectly while others are barely affected by the sanding disc. Once the water is displaced, the disc, oftentimes spinning at a rapid clip (due to a lack of frictional resistance) makes a crash landing atop the paint surface. This leads to pig-tailing, gouging, or scouring.
I hope this info didn't miss the mark, or stray too far from it.
I find this all to be so interesting, and there are lots of things to consider.
The biggest thing that limits our ability to use hard-backed backing plates has to do with user technique. If while sanding we happen to tilt the machine even slightly off kilter, the edge of the disc can dig into the paint. This can create some pretty dastardly sanding marks, especially if we're using coarse grades of discs. That's why most backing plates made for sanding discs tend to be soft and pliable.
Now... think you're pretty good at handling a machine?
Why not make your own backing plate/interface pad combo?
Get a stiff backing plate, and attach a foam interface pad to it. Then, get ahold of a piece of Plexiglas, cut it to the size of the disc, and attach Velcro® hook material to both sides. Slap on your disc of choice, and get to sanding!
The foam interface would help to minimize user-applied tilt variances, so if you happened to get the machine a bit off kilter, the interface would compensate for it. This setup would be ideal for flat panels, but terrible for curved or complex shaped panels.
That's all I've got! For now...
Barry Theal
New member
To think i was on my way to bed Kevin. Damn i hate when you do this. Lol in a nice way. Ill read this in the morning at my desk. I never miss a Kevin write up with diagrams.
Kevin Brown
New member
Funny! Nite-E-nite.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Great reply Kevin. You're insight into this subject is priceless. I've always felt that a DA sander would be able to produce the results quicker, easier and safer than hand sanding. Primarily on large, flat panels.This is also my interprentation when speaking with several painters too. When considering sanding to level an orange peeled surface, we're obviosuly talking about something extremely thin. The goal is to level the surface so that top of the hill is to be as close or to equal to the level of the valley below. This is an action that is almost microscopically being created. This can either be performed very aggressively with coarser grits or less aggressively with finer ones. Regardless, when taking workflow surface safety into consideration, you must contantly check your work for error and progress. When doing this you squeegy away the debris and analyze your progress. This step IMHO is almost as important as the act of sanding itself. If you're concious of the change in surface area being abraded away then you're usually fine.
Also, I'm a firm believer in refining your sand scratches to the finest level *realistically* possible. (to atleast to 3000-4000). With this step you're basicially sanding down/leveling the sharp larger scratches with much finer ones barely removing that much film build. Many times you're actually creating gloss with these newer abrasives. Do you feel this step is less critical when being done via DA?
What's your thought on using an interface pad for heavy or the initial leveling? Pro or Con?
Also, I'm a firm believer in refining your sand scratches to the finest level *realistically* possible. (to atleast to 3000-4000). With this step you're basicially sanding down/leveling the sharp larger scratches with much finer ones barely removing that much film build. Many times you're actually creating gloss with these newer abrasives. Do you feel this step is less critical when being done via DA?
Kevin Brown said:
What's your thought on using an interface pad for heavy or the initial leveling? Pro or Con?
Kevin Brown
New member
David
I was reading your interaction with John Kleven, and he has very valid points.
So do you.
But here's how I try to break things down, to be truthful and honest when giving advice.
If I have to beat YOU and JOHN in a three way sanding and buffing contest, with the goal primarily being a very leveled surface... how would I do it?
Short and quick:
If the car had a lot of flat or long gradually curved areas, I would initially sand by hand using the longest and hardest flexible block I felt comfortable using. For this I'd use Unigrit Finishing papers, unless I needed 800 grit or coarser. Then I 'd hit it again by hand with a finer grade of Unigrit by hand. Then I'd test buff.
If it was curvy like a Beetle, I'm going to level by hand with a short foam block, and I might even use sanding DISCS and a round foam backing pad instead of film backed sand paper. My preference for discs in this realm would be Abranet Soft disc because the net mesh backing retains some rigidity while offering up pretty serious contouring ability. The Unigrit 1500 grade sanding disc is nice, but only available in 1500. There are some very nice film backed discs, but I prefer the net mesh.
My other option?, I'm going to use Abranet Soft on a machine and a variety of interface pads. I'm going to tilt the machine a bit on the aggressively curved stuff, sanding with very light touch while I'm tilting to avoid edge digging, use low speed but enough speed to keep the disc rotating (barely), but use maybe only half of the disc (the other half may be touching a bit, but there would be so little pressure it wouldn't be all that effective on that area).
If the paint is rock hard, I'll step out the sanding and use finishing discs.
For the final sanding step, I'll opt for the Unigrit 3000 Finishing Discs.
Otherwise, I'd use Abralon 2000 & 3000, or 2000 & 4000.
If time is a factor, I'm going to be as aggressive as I can on the first cut, jump quite a bit higher on the second cut, and test buff.
If I can get things looking great with a Meguiar's Microfiber Disc and a random orbital, I will. I'll save time or versus a rotary on soft paint. Not always, but I'd risk it.
If the paint is hard, I'd use a 3" wool pad and a 3" rotary mostly.
M101 all the freaking way. Um, I mean M105 all the freaking way. :rolleyes1:
Why a small diameter pad?
It doesn't take nearly as much compound to keep the pad primed, it's easy to keep things wet with a mist of water, and there's way less dust because of it. There's no magic to keeping the dust level down... it's just that if I have to apply less product because it's kept under better control, I need less product. So, there's actually less waste.
If I need more speed or am looking for a bit more leveling ability, I'll switch to a 7" wool pad. I like the nap and length of fibers on the Meguiar's So1o pads.
If things are going REALLY great, and I'm feeling cocky (which I never really do when I sand or buff), I'm gonna level the poo out of the paint with a Surbuf pad, because I suspect that I've got more faith in the leveling ability of that pad than anyone, and I KNOW I'll outlevel the best guys out there using a rotary and a wool pad, because I'll spend a few minutes to figure out the ideal speed/pressure/diameter combo. Well, it almost always out levels a rotary and a wool pad..
But like I said, I need to be feeling pretty good... an ice cold Shirley Temple, the real kind, Ginger Ale and REAL pomegranate juice. Some Stevie Ray Vaughan, some Kenny Wayne Shepherd, some Blues Traveler, some Beastie Boys, some AC/DC, and even some NWA... (look it up).
For the rush, you know?:spot
And a pocket full of watermelon and green apple Jolly Ranchers, so I don't gotta spend a lotta' time feeding my face with licorice or chips. Or Nutter Butters. :usa:
I was reading your interaction with John Kleven, and he has very valid points.
So do you.
But here's how I try to break things down, to be truthful and honest when giving advice.
If I have to beat YOU and JOHN in a three way sanding and buffing contest, with the goal primarily being a very leveled surface... how would I do it?
Short and quick:
If the car had a lot of flat or long gradually curved areas, I would initially sand by hand using the longest and hardest flexible block I felt comfortable using. For this I'd use Unigrit Finishing papers, unless I needed 800 grit or coarser. Then I 'd hit it again by hand with a finer grade of Unigrit by hand. Then I'd test buff.
If it was curvy like a Beetle, I'm going to level by hand with a short foam block, and I might even use sanding DISCS and a round foam backing pad instead of film backed sand paper. My preference for discs in this realm would be Abranet Soft disc because the net mesh backing retains some rigidity while offering up pretty serious contouring ability. The Unigrit 1500 grade sanding disc is nice, but only available in 1500. There are some very nice film backed discs, but I prefer the net mesh.
My other option?, I'm going to use Abranet Soft on a machine and a variety of interface pads. I'm going to tilt the machine a bit on the aggressively curved stuff, sanding with very light touch while I'm tilting to avoid edge digging, use low speed but enough speed to keep the disc rotating (barely), but use maybe only half of the disc (the other half may be touching a bit, but there would be so little pressure it wouldn't be all that effective on that area).
If the paint is rock hard, I'll step out the sanding and use finishing discs.
For the final sanding step, I'll opt for the Unigrit 3000 Finishing Discs.
Otherwise, I'd use Abralon 2000 & 3000, or 2000 & 4000.
If time is a factor, I'm going to be as aggressive as I can on the first cut, jump quite a bit higher on the second cut, and test buff.
If I can get things looking great with a Meguiar's Microfiber Disc and a random orbital, I will. I'll save time or versus a rotary on soft paint. Not always, but I'd risk it.
If the paint is hard, I'd use a 3" wool pad and a 3" rotary mostly.
M101 all the freaking way. Um, I mean M105 all the freaking way. :rolleyes1:
Why a small diameter pad?
It doesn't take nearly as much compound to keep the pad primed, it's easy to keep things wet with a mist of water, and there's way less dust because of it. There's no magic to keeping the dust level down... it's just that if I have to apply less product because it's kept under better control, I need less product. So, there's actually less waste.
If I need more speed or am looking for a bit more leveling ability, I'll switch to a 7" wool pad. I like the nap and length of fibers on the Meguiar's So1o pads.
If things are going REALLY great, and I'm feeling cocky (which I never really do when I sand or buff), I'm gonna level the poo out of the paint with a Surbuf pad, because I suspect that I've got more faith in the leveling ability of that pad than anyone, and I KNOW I'll outlevel the best guys out there using a rotary and a wool pad, because I'll spend a few minutes to figure out the ideal speed/pressure/diameter combo. Well, it almost always out levels a rotary and a wool pad..
But like I said, I need to be feeling pretty good... an ice cold Shirley Temple, the real kind, Ginger Ale and REAL pomegranate juice. Some Stevie Ray Vaughan, some Kenny Wayne Shepherd, some Blues Traveler, some Beastie Boys, some AC/DC, and even some NWA... (look it up).
For the rush, you know?:spot
And a pocket full of watermelon and green apple Jolly Ranchers, so I don't gotta spend a lotta' time feeding my face with licorice or chips. Or Nutter Butters. :usa:
Kevin Brown
New member
David Fermani said:
If leveling can be done without one, meaning that I don't gouge the paint with the edge of the disc, I'll do it.
It seems that almost always, I end up using an interface pad.
It's just too darned hard to keep a machine totally level.
When I use Abralon, I rarely use an interface pad, unless the panel shape requires one.
If I have a soft backing plate handy, I can use Abranet Soft or Unigrit Finishing Discs without one, too.
But interface pads are as important to sanding with machines as backing plates are to buffing pads.
Does that answer the question alright?
Bill D
Hooked For Life
Kevin Brown said:
Instant classic in the Autopia Book of Memorable Quotes!! :chuckle: :xyxthumbs
Kevin Brown said:
Really??? :shocked: :chuckle:
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
Kevin Brown said:
Oh come on, Kevin... you mean you're not down with OPP? :rofl
AHA! Another Nutter Butter addict I see....
Kevin Brown
New member
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
I suppose I'd better keep some slower stuff on hand in case things aren't going so well, and I need to de-stress... Norah Jones?
Barry Theal
New member
Personally I prefer a little snoop! All them drinks made me this of this. Gee thanks there I was singing this at my desk! LOL picture a Fat white guy at his desk in a detailing shop singing and listening to this. lol
Bill D
Hooked For Life
If you want super old school, check it out: