Wet Sanding steps for a newbie.

Fishing

Fishing

Member
I tried to find but could not find information about how to wet sand a car for orange peel removal. Is there such a thread ? I was looking for something that would really give a list of the basic steps. Also before doing wet sanding is there a way to tell if the orange peel is in the clear coat or the paint ? Thanx in advance for ANY help
 
Fishing- I might as well chime in with my usual, if generally unappreciated, advice to just not do it.

With the minimal amount of clear that can be removed over the life of the vehicle, I`d be hard-pressed to justify removing any to fix oe orange peel, and if we`re talking orange peel from a repaint there are Qs I`d put to the painter first.

(I believe that few can level, or even significantly reduce, orange peel without thinning the clear; no, I do not believe that people "only take it off the high spots.")

OTOH, if you have extra mils (not microns) of clear to work with, and a good ETG, and you`re dialed-in on major correction, then well...."never mind!" and I apologize for making assumptions.

It`s just that few people who are (what I`d insider) qualified to do wet sanding ever ask questions about it and an awful lot of people who do ask about/try it end up asking how to fix the resulting damage (and the answer is "with a paint gun").

I`d sure plan to *not* use anything coarser than 1500 and to do the final sanding with 3k or finer. And to subsequently limit UV exposure for the life of the vehicle. Unless you have those extra mils to work with.

Wonder how 4u2nvinmtl is doing these days...I still worry that he took off too much for long-term UV resistance, but he made an informed decision (since we discussed this stuff before he did it) and was prepared to live with the consequences.
 
Fishing --
If you really want to go through with this, you need to get a 3M Black Rubber Sanding Block, and a couple of smaller thick, rubber blocks and 3M WET or DRY paper..
The block is to insure you sand - Flat - across the panel..

I would suggest you also get a can of either gray or flat black lacquer paint to spray a - Light Guide Coat over the area you sand first.. Just lightly mist it on..
This Guide Coat will allow you to visually see the area you sanded, and any low spots along the way that need to be addressed, if you want to sand flat..

You need to have water running over the sanding area the entire time you are doing this, to keep rinsing off the removed paint, and keeping the sandpaper clean..
What we had in the paint shop was a water hose that had the metal connector cut off so there would be no chance of scratching any of the panel with a metal connector...

Try to use the Sanding Block as much as possible, so the panel is sanded flat..

If you decide to use the Guide Coat Method, you will need to paper and tape off the areas around the sanding, so you don`t get the Guide Coat on them..
They sell little rolls of paper at places like Home Depot along with a hand taper that holds a roll of paper and the tape, so all you have to do is pull out the paper and the tape is on the edge of one side of it..

The only other thing I can think of is -- once you start removing orange peel at whatever - LEVEL - you remove it, you have to keep it at that level or it will not match..
If you remove it all and make the panel absolutely flat and compound it perfectly, then what happens if the next panel does not look the same ?? Get what I mean ??

And as has been already mentioned above, if you do not have a total paint thickness meter that is reasonably accurate and can be calibrated before you start the work, you are taking a chance.. While only the most expensive DeFelsko meter can be pretty accurate at measuring the different layers, the other meters can at least give you the - total paint thickness - measurement ( this is counting the primer, sealer, anything else that is put down AND the little amount of paint and clearcoat that is applied on top)..

Then, if you have this total thickness measurement, and you sand, and measure in MICRONS, you can see that for example you went from total paint thickness of say - 120 microns to 115 microns, etc... The idea is to take off as LITTLE as possible, because as we all know, once you take it off, you cannot put it back on without a lot of expense of a repaint, etc...

The process I outlined above is the one I and all Painters use at all the body shops in the world, to get vehicles they worked on ready to paint, after they applied the primer, etc.., over the repair...

And it goes without saying, that you need great lighting over the entire panel, while you are doing this, and since this is a wet process, you need to mind the electrical cords - especially the connection points are nowhere near the water...
Good luck with this -

Or, perhaps you can look at the CarPro Denim, I believe, pads that are supposed to be able to remove orange peel, etc... I have no experience with these pads.. Perhaps someone else has, or you can look them up on Youtube, etc... Ask CarPro about them, etc...

Dan F
 
Fishing said:
..is there a way to tell if the orange peel is in the clear coat or the paint ?
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It`s almost always in the clear unless the paint job is pretty messed up. If it`s in the basecoat to the extent that the clear didn`t just fill it in then you can sometimes make it better by leveling the clear where it has conformed to the texture of the basecoat; that happened on my wife`s A8 when my Audi painter was, uhm...learning the tricks of waterborne paint. It sure didn`t turn out perfect, but it`s better.

Oh, and it can be funny what lighting is best for inspecting texture...lights that are great for see swirls aren`t always good for this and sometimes I see textures best under fluorescent lights of all things! Sure can`t see anything else under those lights, but on some paints they`re great for this.

Eh, IMO 99% of the time the solution for orangepeel is to just live with it unless it`s a repainted panel not matching the rest of the car, and even then I`d sure think about it for a while. "First, do no harm" and all that...

Heh heh.. the two repainted panels on the Crown Vic have such severe orangepeel that they`re almost a matte finish compared to the rest of the car, and I have considered those CarPro Denim Pads. But like the terrible (OE) orangepeel on the S8, I`m just living with it. And I`m not a newbie, or lacking confidence, when it comes to this ;) But that`s just me, and plenty of guys here would knock those two flat without hesitation (Hi, Barry!).
 
Accumulator said:
...

OTOH, if you have extra mils (not microns) of clear to work with, and a good ETG, and you`re dialed-in on major correction, then well...."never mind!" and I apologize for making assumptions.
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Agree with everything you said. And I would venture to say your assumption was a safe one, being the title of this thread mentioned "newbie."

Accumulator said:
Wonder how 4u2nvinmtl is doing these days...I still worry that he took off too much for long-term UV resistance, but he made an informed decision (since we discussed this stuff before he did it) and was prepared to live with the consequences.
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Haven`t heard from him in a while. And like him, I was well aware of the potential consequences when I went off into those sanding sessions! And yes, I was also prepared to live with them :)

I wouldn`t suggest, to a newbie, to go after orange peel on factory paint. I do it to my Yaris only because of what I`m dealing with: a car that will eventually get repainted. And the several sanding sessions on my CRX hood, well it WAS a repaint and I knew I had quite a bit of clear to work with.

And on the wife`s Kia, I`m even avoiding compounding! I`m living with some swirls on it, and most recently, the swirling left behind by the body shop. I *may* touch them up....maybe. Doubtful, though. - I want to have as much paint as possible to last the years. Overall, the paint has been fairly well maintained.
 
JustJesus- Hey, I`d forgotten you`d done that! Yeah, the Yaris` paint must`ve been pretty thin too.

Smart move pampering the Kia, note Mike lambert`s recent post about how thin the paint on Mazdas is (even a few microns thinner than my last one was).
 
Accumulator: Fairly thin, but nowhere as near as that Mazda from the other thread!!

I took six readings on four different sections of the panel. Averages are 118, 112, 115, 115 - The second number is the section I just sanded and corrected with the Flash pad.

After removing the highest and lowest readings for each section, I ended up with the same averages listed above. I guess not much was removed during the process?

For comparison, I took readings of the other Yaris hood I used to test on (the black one). Readings on that hood were near 100. Some spots went as low as 85! Keep in mind that black hood has gone through a few sanding sessions, and a few polishing sections. It served me well, that hood :)
 
JustJesus- Ah, OK...sounds like you didn`t take all *that* much off after all and that isn`t all *that* thin.

Thinking about that test hood, I wonder what the safe max (removal) is...like at 85, whether those areas would fade under UV exposure.
 
The rub comes from the fact that no auto makers will tell you how much paint/clearcoat, etc., they put on vehicles, I don`t believe they ever have..
Perhaps they think that people dont care about knowing this... But we do - Detailers that care especially, want to know..
But then think about their " process "....
Wash with dirty everything, dry with dirty everything, slap on the preferred "fill and oil" 1-step paint prep, and out the door she goes... :)
And for sure, they dont give a hoot how long a person actually wants to keep the car - with or without - clearcoat failure.... :)
Dan F
 
Stokdgs said:
The rub comes from the fact that no auto makers will tell you how much paint/clearcoat, etc., they put on vehicles, I don`t believe they ever have..
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Ford issues TSBs about such stuff, and/so I expect the others do too, but had I not known Ketch....too bad one needs "insider knowledge" about so many things that IMO aren`t really proprietary info.

I`m surprised that Optimum hasn`t shouted from the rooftops about Ford determining OCW is OK on repaints, but you never hear about that even.

they dont give a hoot how long a person actually wants to keep the car - with or without - clearcoat failure....
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Noting that I don`t believe most people will keep their cars past the Lease Period or raise [Cain] about paint issues (or care about this stuff at all), a cynical person might suggest that it`d be one more way to get people into a new one. New version of trading it in when the timing belt needs done..hey, why wait that long?!?
 
JustJesus said:
Accumulator: Fairly thin, but nowhere as near as that Mazda from the other thread!!

I took six readings on four different sections of the panel. Averages are 118, 112, 115, 115 - The second number is the section I just sanded and corrected with the Flash pad.

After removing the highest and lowest readings for each section, I ended up with the same averages listed above. I guess not much was removed during the process?

For comparison, I took readings of the other Yaris hood I used to test on (the black one). Readings on that hood were near 100. Some spots went as low as 85! Keep in mind that black hood has gone through a few sanding sessions, and a few polishing sections. It served me well, that hood :)
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Interesting!

Do you remember what grit of wet sanding paper you used on the hood? And did you sand by hand or polisher?

I think that you are to be prepared to repaint any part you are going to wet sanding. If you don`t have a paint thickness gauge to get readings from. Not that it will be necessary to repaint just that you have that mind set. If things go bad or it will do it in the near future. I would get a scrap yard panel to do some testing on before I do it on a car I care for.

You that know or have worked in a bodyshop. What would be the problem when buying a new car with thin paint. And wet sanding down the clearcoat flat or sanding. Then spray some extra clearcoat on the paint. Have a trusted bodyshop to do this. Is it that the clearcoat layer on the original clearcoat don`t bond well enough? And risking it to getting flakes down the road? The extra bucks for us geeks that likes to correct our paints would benefit alot in the long run. Just thinking out loud lol.

/Tony
 
SWETM said:
Interesting!

Do you remember what grit of wet sanding paper you used on the hood? And did you sand by hand or polisher?

I think that you are to be prepared to repaint any part you are going to wet sanding. If you don`t have a paint thickness gauge to get readings from. Not that it will be necessary to repaint just that you have that mind set. If things go bad or it will do it in the near future. I would get a scrap yard panel to do some testing on before I do it on a car I care for.

You that know or have worked in a bodyshop. What would be the problem when buying a new car with thin paint. And wet sanding down the clearcoat flat or sanding. Then spray some extra clearcoat on the paint. Have a trusted bodyshop to do this. Is it that the clearcoat layer on the original clearcoat don`t bond well enough? And risking it to getting flakes down the road? The extra bucks for us geeks that likes to correct our paints would benefit alot in the long run. Just thinking out loud lol.

/Tony
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You could sand down and reclear the entire vehicle but that gets very expensive,,you have to de trim the entire vehicle and remove all the body mounted glass to do it right and prevent clearcoat peeling or flaking,,I`d rather just save my money and do all THAT after the clearcoat fails......or doesn`t.

working in dealerships mainly for the last 28 years I have had the great pleasure of of seeing a variety of factory defects such no paint in the jambs,a Subaru that had a tie down chain go through the hood (transportation) and a GMC Sonoma that was a GMC on one side and a Chevy s 10 on the other just to name a few.
I have also noticed several are "corrected" at the factory by wet sanding and buffing which is a good reason to measure paint thickness,,,it can save a lot of headaches down the road.
 
Accumulator said:
JustJesus- Ah, OK...sounds like you didn`t take all *that* much off after all and that isn`t all *that* thin.

Thinking about that test hood, I wonder what the safe max (removal) is...like at 85, whether those areas would fade under UV exposure.
Click to expand...

I was a bit surprised myself, given the readings.

I wouldn`t doubt those areas at 85 would easily fade in short time. More so, given that a *stock* Yaris` clear coat has a tendency to peel. I`ve seen way too many examples of these models with clear coat failure. And of course, it`s passed the warranty period when it happens. So like you mentioned in your other post about some that may be cynical....haha...that would be me! Did Toyota engineer their paint to last only 7 or so years before the clear peels away, making it look ugly, so that the owner can trade in their cars for newer models?



SWETM said:
Interesting!

Do you remember what grit of wet sanding paper you used on the hood? And did you sand by hand or polisher?
Click to expand...

The first time, it was done by hand with Meguiar`s Unigrit paper at 2000 grit. The other 1- 2 (on some parts) times, were done by machine and Mirka Abralon discs. I don`t think I went lower than 2k on this black hood, though. So it would have been 2k followed by 4k. The 3k wasn`t in stock when I bought them, so that`s why I went to 4k.

SWETM said:
I think that you are to be prepared to repaint any part you are going to wet sanding. If you don`t have a paint thickness gauge to get readings from. Not that it will be necessary to repaint just that you have that mind set. If things go bad or it will do it in the near future. I would get a scrap yard panel to do some testing on before I do it on a car I care for.
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Agreed. You must be prepared for the worst when taking on a wet sanding task. The black hood on my blue Yaris was a spare I had. Eventually, it turned into my test panel for various product testing.
 
WOW guys some great insight here. After reading all of this I don`t think I will be doing any wet sanding on cars. But If I come across an old hood or door Im gonna give it a try. Thank you all SO much for all the help/knowledge. As a newbie it is VERY much appreciated. I believe you guys have saved me from getting into some bad situations :)
 
Farmall-luvr said:
You could sand down and reclear the entire vehicle but that gets very expensive,,you have to de trim the entire vehicle and remove all the body mounted glass to do it right...
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That.

And many vehicles aren`t built so that they can be taken apart for a proper painting. My Audis have lots of "bonded" bits that aren`t meant to be disassembled; there`s no practical way to remove those (let alone get replacement pieces on right) and masking stuff off won`t yield oe-quality results.

This is leaving aside those of us who highly value originality...I`ve had a scad of cars repainted over the years, including 5-figure jobs that were done right, and not *one* of those repaints was as good as the oe finish in all respects. Maybe the repaint had less orangepeel, or a more even metallic element, or "looked a mile deeper" or something else really swell, but even then there would always be some trade-off like being more fragile or something not going back together quite right. If nothing else, post-production paintwork just isn`t baked at the same temps, can`t be done once the wiring/upholstery/etc. is in the vehicle and how many remove all of that on a 21st century car? Most don`t even pull all the glass.

Some of the trim that *must* be replaced for repainting comes through in less-than-OK condition too; I simply cannot get flawless pieces for my Audis and yep, Audi freely admits it... "sorry about your luck". We went through a lot of reorders on the A8/S8 before finally accepting that some peces pieces would never be perfect. Even *glass* :rolleyes: No matter how much $ anybody throws at the job, some of it simply cannot be done right...and my Audis aren`t all that exotic.

I have had... a GMC Sonoma that was a GMC on one side and a Chevy s 10 on the other just to name a few.
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Heh heh, yeah...back in `79 I prepped a Dodge Aspen that had some Plymouth Volare emblems on it. My Jag had *LOTS* of stuff that was different from one side to the other, and even some lenses installed upside-down...all oe.
 
The whole "fading" and UV resistance topic can be weird...the totally trashed paint on my `93 Audi oughta fail with an hour`s exposure to UV. Lots of exposed pearlcoat layer, some exposed basecoat, even a hint of primer in places (all thanks to the original owner`s "detailer")...but I drive it all the time and it sees lots of sun, and I haven`t repolished it for many years, and....it`s not getting discernibly worse even though guys like me say it should! Meanwhile I`ve seen *numerous* cars with failed clear and/or visible fading (esp. some reds) from the clear being overly thinned. YMMV, again. But despite my good luck with that car, I`m still pretty fanatical about *NOT* thinning my clear or the ss on the Jag.
 
Speaking of good luck...I`ve *NEVER* done a "practice wetsand" on a scrap panel or one I`d planned to have reshot. I`ve just erred on the side of caution and/or decided not to go there if I had any qualms. Better safe than sorry IMO, but then I`m not working in a bodyshop either.
 
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