Yo, Intermezzo and Taxlady. If you're enjoying this one, be sure to check out the new "temperature-does it matter?" thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22254
Wax bonding
- Thread starter vern
- Start date
imported_Intermezzo
New member
Tax,
I hear you. My wife stays away from me until I've had my morning cup!
Lynn,
LoL, it never ends!!
I hear you. My wife stays away from me until I've had my morning cup!
Lynn,
LoL, it never ends!!
I deleted my question about applying wax in cold temps.
I wouldn't want to *iss anybody off here.
I am sorry, for a second I thought this was a "help" forum about helping others with questions. I will use the search alot more as not to disturb anybody with my question if it has been asked before.
(going to sit in the corner now)
I wouldn't want to *iss anybody off here.
I am sorry, for a second I thought this was a "help" forum about helping others with questions. I will use the search alot more as not to disturb anybody with my question if it has been asked before.(going to sit in the corner now)
Nick T.
New member
jonw440 and vern - don’t give up on Autopia. It’s very rare for a question from a newbie to be handled with so much sarcasm!
Sorry, but I can’t offer any info about the minimum bonding temperature for carnauba - it most likely is different for different brands. My solution to the question would be to wax a small area, then the next day test it to see if the wax stuck to the paint or not.
Good luck!
Sorry, but I can’t offer any info about the minimum bonding temperature for carnauba - it most likely is different for different brands. My solution to the question would be to wax a small area, then the next day test it to see if the wax stuck to the paint or not.
Good luck!
Actually, now that I think about it you need to back your question up one step because the whole issue of "does wax bond or not?" is still under debate. It's accepted that the polymer stuff does bond, but the question "Does carnauba wax bond?" doesn't have a firm answer. I think right now it's hovering around the "probably not" neighborhood and people just say wax only sits on top of the paint like oil or..... wax.vern said:
Which is probably part of the reason why you won't find much information or discussion about carnauba wax bonding temperatures and more about simple carnauba wax applying temperatures......
jonw440 said:I deleted my question about applying wax in cold temps.
I wouldn't want to *iss anybody off here.
(going to sit in the corner now)
Sorry if I came on too strong, jonw440. :doh Yes, Autopia definitely is a helping place. But why should the knowledgeable (dare I say "senior"?
) Autopia veterans spend their time repeatedly answering the same basic questions, if we (I'm still a relative newbie too) don't do our part by searching? Also, searching will often yield more info than the replies you would receive in any single thread. For example, Scottwax seems to be very knowledgeable about ClearKote. But what if he's in the Bahamas (yeah, right!
) the week you have a ClearKote question? Using the search function lets us gather a whole lot more info on many of the basics. On the other hand, I do find the search engine a little frustrating sometimes -- well, actually, it's my lack of good search skills that's frustrating. Vern had done a search and didn't find anything. By searching "wax + temperature + applying," ejant found a ton o' good stuff. Would I have known to construct the search that way? I'm not sure. It's difficult to construct a search so it'll get what I want, but to narrow down my terms so that I don't end up with 814 threads to plow thru. I think that, with practice, I'm getting a little better at it.
Again, I am sorry if it felt like I blasted you. (And I haven't had my Starbucks today.
)imported_Intermezzo
New member
4DSC said:
Well technically, it does bond otherwise it would just slip right off your car. I think the question is how is a wax bonding to your car different than the cationic bond that occurs between an amino-silicone polymer and the surface of your car. Or am I way off base?
Personally, I think they're similar and the reason why a polymer will outlast a traditional wax is because the crosslinking of the polymer sealant that occurs within itself results in a much stronger structure than the less structured/organized hardening that occurs with waxes.
No, no, I'm sure you're right.Intermezzo said:
"Bonding" can occur on different levels and at different strengths. Like you said, it's the reason why ink doesn't just fall off of paper, why water sticks to surfaces, why clay doesn't spontaneously disintegrate, etc, etc. There's a lot of marketing BS about "magical polymers" that "become part of the paint". Yeah right. I bet they're simply better at bonding (sticking) to the paint surface than natural waxes.jonw440 said:I deleted my question about applying wax in cold temps.
I wouldn't want to *iss anybody off here.
(going to sit in the corner now)
Now, now, don't be like that.
Personally, I have no problem answering newbie questions. Know why? Because we all had them / HAVE them at some point. If it's a painfully obvious answer - "What is the best (whatever)," for instance - then I'll be the first one to tell them about the search function, of which they're probably already aware. However, I'll still gladly give my $.02, because that is, after all, what that person's asking, right?
Vern's temperature thing going here would have been the same way, and had I had numbers to give from previous knowledge, I'd gladly do so even if it was discussed in a past thread.
It's just when people get ... well, excuse me, mods, but it's when people get "Richard"-like about what they're asking that's not cool. :xyxthumbs :wavey
imported_spooled180
New member
vern said:
no
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
~One manâ€â„¢s opinion / observations
1. Wax bonding
Is there any truth the outside temperature should be 60 degrees or higher for the wax to bond properly to the paint??? TIA vern
Temperature conditions:
These are the temperatures and conditions that are relative to the application of car care products; the most important is the actual surface temperature of the vehicle. The other things that will have a direct bearing on this is the humidity as this will effect the cross-linking (cure) time, excess humidity will also affect â€Ëœhowâ€â„¢ a wax or sealant dries (i.e. it may cause hazing or clouding of the surface)
The other climate related condition that should be avoided when applying car care products is direct sunlight, as this will dramatically increase the surface temperature compared to ambient temperatures causing the product to dry prematurely and may render it ineffective.
1.Surface Temperature (Actual surface temperature of the vehicle)- 60 â€â€œ 80oF products will work well within a much broader temperature range, (50° to 90° F) but the best results will be achieved in the 60° to 80° F range surrounding air temp (ambient or room) must be 55oF + to ensure the minimum vehicle surface temperature of 50oF(recommended as a minimum by most manufacturers)
2.Ambient Temperature (Outside air temperature)
3.Relative Humidity (Moisture content of the air)- RH 50% +/-10%
4.Inside Air Temperature (Room Temperature) 70 â€â€œ 75oF +/- 10oF and 50% relative humidity +/- 10%
5.Air movement or windy conditions will increase the evaporation rate but potentially make some products more difficult work with, especially sprayed products. Perversely this can lessen wax / sealant drying time.
In summary, the ideal conditions for the application of car care products; cool and dry, away from direct sunlight, a surface temperature between 60° and 80° F, 50% RH or lower humidity, and a light air movement.
2. Adherence (Wax bonding)
Carnauba wax, polymer sealant and synthetic waxes set-up during the curing process they adhere to a paint film surface primarily by surface tension. The balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the paint film surface thereby creating an anchor. Except in the case of polymer, which initially adheres by surface tension and then after a cross-linking period (12-24 hours, which is time and temp/humidity dependent) forms a molecular bond to the paint
~Hope this helps~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted [each one / teach one]
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ JonM
1. Wax bonding
Is there any truth the outside temperature should be 60 degrees or higher for the wax to bond properly to the paint??? TIA vern
Temperature conditions:
These are the temperatures and conditions that are relative to the application of car care products; the most important is the actual surface temperature of the vehicle. The other things that will have a direct bearing on this is the humidity as this will effect the cross-linking (cure) time, excess humidity will also affect â€Ëœhowâ€â„¢ a wax or sealant dries (i.e. it may cause hazing or clouding of the surface)
The other climate related condition that should be avoided when applying car care products is direct sunlight, as this will dramatically increase the surface temperature compared to ambient temperatures causing the product to dry prematurely and may render it ineffective.
1.Surface Temperature (Actual surface temperature of the vehicle)- 60 â€â€œ 80oF products will work well within a much broader temperature range, (50° to 90° F) but the best results will be achieved in the 60° to 80° F range surrounding air temp (ambient or room) must be 55oF + to ensure the minimum vehicle surface temperature of 50oF(recommended as a minimum by most manufacturers)
2.Ambient Temperature (Outside air temperature)
3.Relative Humidity (Moisture content of the air)- RH 50% +/-10%
4.Inside Air Temperature (Room Temperature) 70 â€â€œ 75oF +/- 10oF and 50% relative humidity +/- 10%
5.Air movement or windy conditions will increase the evaporation rate but potentially make some products more difficult work with, especially sprayed products. Perversely this can lessen wax / sealant drying time.
In summary, the ideal conditions for the application of car care products; cool and dry, away from direct sunlight, a surface temperature between 60° and 80° F, 50% RH or lower humidity, and a light air movement.
2. Adherence (Wax bonding)
Carnauba wax, polymer sealant and synthetic waxes set-up during the curing process they adhere to a paint film surface primarily by surface tension. The balance of the adherence process is that it works its way via the carrier system (solvent and / or oils) into the microscopic gaps and valleys of the paint film surface thereby creating an anchor. Except in the case of polymer, which initially adheres by surface tension and then after a cross-linking period (12-24 hours, which is time and temp/humidity dependent) forms a molecular bond to the paint
~Hope this helps~
Knowledge unshared is experience wasted [each one / teach one]
justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ JonM
togwt
The Old Grey Whistle Test
Despite it's low budget the show (BBC television, England) was a great success. Bands soon found their album sales would soar after an appearance.
When the Old Grey Whistle Test went on air in 1971 it was unique. In a world accustomed to Top of the Pops, here was a show on which the bands performed album tracks and were interviewed after they had played. This was before the days of miming. The music was live and, since the idea was to air new sounds, many of the bands were making their first television appearance. Presenter Bob Harris recalls how the show's name was inspired by the doormen (in grey suits) who worked at the music publishing houses in London's Denmark Street, known as 'tin pan alley':
Bob Harris (whispering Bob) on the show
"It was a 'tin pan alley' phrase from years ago. When they got the first pressing of a record they would play it to people they called the old greys. The ones they could remember and could whistle having heard it just once or twice had passed the old grey whistle test".
JonM
When the Old Grey Whistle Test went on air in 1971 it was unique. In a world accustomed to Top of the Pops, here was a show on which the bands performed album tracks and were interviewed after they had played. This was before the days of miming. The music was live and, since the idea was to air new sounds, many of the bands were making their first television appearance. Presenter Bob Harris recalls how the show's name was inspired by the doormen (in grey suits) who worked at the music publishing houses in London's Denmark Street, known as 'tin pan alley':
Bob Harris (whispering Bob) on the show
"It was a 'tin pan alley' phrase from years ago. When they got the first pressing of a record they would play it to people they called the old greys. The ones they could remember and could whistle having heard it just once or twice had passed the old grey whistle test".
JonM