Vintage Side By Side?

[GoudyL]

Doesn't really matter if there really is an elusive white carnauba or if it is obtained via processing as long as the wax produces the desired results.

It does matter, because we talking about a raw product that costs only few (low single digits) $/lb and is then resold for $1700/8oz in a fancy lucite cube.



Part of the claimed reason for the this difference in price is due to the supposed rarity of the "white carnauba", which is at best probably some bleached grade of extra light #1 yellow.



Now, simplest explanation for all this is that zymol has found the equivalent of audiophiles who claim to be able to hear subtle differences amongst audio cables. Or even better, power cables.

PK10 Palladian



This proprietary technology has permitted the creation of an AC power cable of unmatched clarity, silence and freedom from grain.

Change that to unmatched clarity, gloss and freedom from swirls. And you have Zymol Atlantique. :spot:

 

[SuperBee364]

It does matter, because we talking about a raw product that costs only few (low single digits) $/lb and is then resold for $1700/8oz in a fancy lucite cube.



Part of the claimed reason for the this difference in price is due to the supposed rarity of the "white carnauba", which is at best probably some bleached grade of extra light #1 yellow.



Now, simplest explanation for all this is that zymol has found the equivalent of audiophiles who claim to be able to hear subtle differences amongst audio cables. Or even better, power cables.







Change that to unmatched clarity, gloss and freedom from swirls. And you have Zymol Atlantique. :spot:

How is this any different from coffee, coctton, grains, or any other imported commodity? That's just how the market works. I buy Ethiopian Sudamo coffee from Starbucks, and I pay 12 bucks a pound for it. I bet the farmer in Ethiopia got the equivalent of a plate of rice for it. Carnauba wax is *not* unique in this respect. If you're gonna hate the game, hate it all, cause it's all the same.



And if you really hate Zymol that bad, show your contempt in the best possible way: don't buy it. But dissing those that *do* like it and buy it is certainly not going to win you any friends, nor is it going to change their opinion about the product. It just perpetuates flames.

 

[Accumulator]

Single-blind LSP test: I sometimes change the LSP (and only the LSP) on my wife's silver Audi. Sometimes I do the whole car and sometimes I just do sections. I never tell her that I've done anything. There are a few LSPs she spots right away.



-Pinnacle Souveran somehow just *JUMPS* out at her, she knows it right away and prefers it over everything else I use on silver Audis.



-When I switched from the usual #16 to 476S for a winter, she noticed *right* away (and didn't like it...so much for using a "winter wax" on that car).



But the above-mentioned LSPs seemed to pass the blind testing. Heh heh, I don't see doing a true *double* blind test



Otherwise, I compare LSPs by doing our two identical Audis and comparing them side-by-side. Some diffs are striking, some are subtle, some...well, sometimes two products look about the same and I can't tell if I'm really discerning a difference or not (there's that inability to do a true double-blind test again).



trodd69- Heh heh, I bet 99 people out of any random hundred couldn't tell an Eleiko bar from a cheapie that came free with the plates either Even if the average person can't discern a diff, that doesn't mean that people who are (for lack of a better term) "experts" won't recognize and appreciate the subtleties that make some things "better". Heh heh, consider the diffs in collars...they might look about the same but which ones will you trust to hold *your* plates in place I wouldn't want Joe-average making that decision for me

 

[lbls1]

Wow an old one.



Little hint: I was a staunch critic of Zymols products.......until I tried one..well a couple (incl. vintage).



The in-person results will always answer the question on zymol's validity. Compare.........if you dare!

 

[GoudyL]

How is this any different from coffee, coctton, grains, or any other imported commodity?

By about $3400/lb +/- $15/lb.

Carnauba wax is *not* unique in this respect. If you're gonna hate the game, hate it all, cause it's all the same.

My issue is all the woo associated with the high end zymols. My own guess is that once you cross $100/can you are entering the woo zone, and by $1700/can are located close to the center.



I find it very hard to believe that the difference, if it does exist, cannot be captured by photo's or a side by side test. It can only be experienced in person, when the fung shui is right.



Same deal with audiophile equipment, the difference can't be measured by instruments. At that point, you have to entertain the idea that there is no difference.



The ability of people (even, smart honest people) to delude themselves is well known, and so much enhanced when there is serious money involved.



If zymol really was the best, then there should be very little difficulty in showing it to be so. If it turns out to be not reliably distinguished from competing waxes, then.

 

[Imatk]

This is an old thread



As an update I did acquire some Vintage to use about a year ago.



Was it a good wax? Yes.



Was it good enough to be worth anywhere near the money?



Put it this way... I bought the sampler for $85, used it a couple times and sold it for $80.



I suspected and am now assured from my own experience that a wax is a wax... it's all in the prep.



Are there better waxes than others? Yeah... but they can be had for about a tenth of what Vintage costs.



Clearkote Carnuba Moose continues to be my "go-to" wax.

 

[Saleenman607]

This is an old thread



As an update I did acquire some Vintage to use about a year ago.



Was it a good wax? Yes.



Was it good enough to be worth anywhere near the money?



Put it this way... I bought the sampler for $85, used it a couple times and sold it for $80.



I suspected and am now assured from my own experience that a wax is a wax... it's all in the prep.



Are there better waxes than others? Yeah... but they can be had for about a tenth of what Vintage costs.



Clearkote Carnuba Moose continues to be my "go-to" wax.

There you have it........case closed. I've tried many a wax and have come away with the same conclusion........it's ALL subjective. The extra scratch for a super high end wax is not worth it via pictures or in person! (my humble opinion of course).

Carry on.........

 

[lbls1]

Its true that this is an old argument, but let's clear up one myth at this moment. Unfortunately, neither prep or the wax alone will produce the look of the paint. The integrity of the paint itself will determine its visual outcome. Prep will only clean and smoothen the surface, whereas waxing or use of a lsp could add a sense of moistness, texture and a visual aura that could be appreciated by some.



However, neither prep or waxing could produce an optimal result with a poor condition (faded, burned, chipped/road rash, cracked) or defective paint (runs, clearcoat failure).

 

[Saleenman607]

Its true that this is an old argument, but let's clear up one myth at this moment. Unfortunately, neither prep or the wax alone will produce the look of the paint. The integrity of the paint itself will determine its visual outcome. Prep will only clean and smoothen the surface, whereas waxing or use of a lsp could add a sense of moistness, texture and a visual aura that could be appreciated by some.



However, neither prep or waxing could produce an optimal result with a poor condition (faded, burned, chipped/road rash, cracked) or defective paint (runs, clearcoat failure).

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying? What myth?

 

[lbls1]

Nothing to be sorry about. Its a statement of my viewpoint concerning what a lot of people say that prep is the sole determinant of the appearance of a paint finish. Good paint is a must in order for prep work to have an optimal result.

 

[RDAutosport]

Wow, bring up an old thread. I still love my Vintage. I have been waiting 9 weeks for my refill to come in. I talked with the CEO of Zymol. He told me they are waiting for the wax to come in. They can only harvest the wax two periods of the year or the tree will die. So I believe I am getting a quality product.

Hmm, this I find a bit strange. They may be waiting on the wax to come in because their inventory replinishment isn't all that great, but to claim the wax is only harvested twice a year so you assume you are getting a quality product is a bit inconsistent? The crappiest <insert whatever commodity here> in the world could be harvested only every fifth year, it is still crap. Personally, this "two periods of the year" sounds like nonsense.



Based on reading this thread, it appears to me that you believe you are getting a quality product based on your personal results, not based on how often the wax is harvested.



Regards,



Rich

 

[DM101]

Rich, if you had ever used Vintage you would know what a quality product it is. Vintage is harvested from older trees that are very valuable to produce a quality wax #1 Brazilian white carnauba. But yes I do beleive I am getting a quality product based on Results and the Quality of the wax used. Also I know the quality after using over 20 types of waxes and sealants.

Hmm, this I find a bit strange. They may be waiting on the wax to come in because their inventory replinishment isn't all that great, but to claim the wax is only harvested twice a year so you assume you are getting a quality product is a bit inconsistent? The crappiest <insert whatever commodity here> in the world could be harvested only every fifth year, it is still crap. Personally, this "two periods of the year" sounds like nonsense.



Based on reading this thread, it appears to me that you believe you are getting a quality product based on your personal results, not based on how often the wax is harvested.



Regards,



Rich

 

[GoudyL]

Hmm, this I find a bit strange. They may be waiting on the wax to come in because their inventory replinishment isn't all that great, but to claim the wax is only harvested twice a year so you assume you are getting a quality product is a bit inconsistent?

This is wax, which doesn't spoil. Suppliers and users should be able to keep working inventories of raw materials and finished product on hand. Especially given that Zymol has an ongoing obligation to offer refills of Vintage/Royal.



Though perhaps Zymol has exhausted the world supply of the rare "white carnauba" and so they must wait till the next harvest.



A more cynical person would venture the company is having cash flow issues.

 

[DM101]

Perhaps they under estimate the number of people who are sending in there cubes for refills.

This is wax, which doesn't spoil. Suppliers and users should be able to keep working inventories of raw materials and finished product on hand. Especially given that Zymol has an ongoing obligation to offer refills of Vintage/Royal.



Though perhaps Zymol has exhausted the world supply of the rare "white carnauba" and so they must wait till the next harvest.



A more cynical person would venture the company is having cash flow issues.

 

[RDAutosport]

Rich, if you had ever used Vintage you would know what a quality product it is.

I have a pretty good idea what a quality product is and I have managed to do this without ever personally using Vintage.

Vintage is harvested from older trees that are very valuable to produce a quality wax #1 Brazilian white carnauba.

Yeah, I am not exactly buying that as the reason they haven't refilled your Vintage, but if you want to, that is fine with me. If I had paid the price Zymol charges for Vintage and had to wait that long for a refill, I'd be telling them exactly what I think of their excuse. What prevents them from eventually saying "well, our super rare old #1 Brazilian white carnauba trees have all died and we can't refill your Vintage...thanks for the business".

But yes I do beleive I am getting a quality product based on Results and the Quality of the wax used. Also I know the quality after using over 20 types of waxes and sealants.

And that was my point, when the purported harvest of this wax is meaningless to the purported quality of the wax. If #1 Brazilian white carnauba trees grew on every street corner and could be harvested daily but only one company was capable of taking that harvest and turning into Vintage, would it still be a quality product? Rarity doesn't imply quality.



Regards,



Rich

 

[DM101]

Not worth the time. I love ZV. I use and continue to use ZV. :heelclick





[quote name='RDAutosport']I have a pretty good idea what a quality product is and I have managed to do this without ever personally using Vintage.

 

[GoudyL]

Perhaps they under estimate the number of people who are sending in there cubes for refills.

Then they should say so directly, rather than telling people stories about a magical wax that is only harvested twice a year. Something along the lines of the vintage wax from our last production run, ran out on mm/dd/yy, and we have our next run scheduled for mm/dd/yy.



Also if they are just out of the essential "white carnauba" , how come sales of the other zymol wax's made with "white carnauba" haven't been stopped dead as well?



IMHO the company ought be able to manage its raw materials, manufacturing operations, finished product inventory better.

 

[Accumulator]

Heh heh...people area always casting stones at Zymol. I don't even use the stuff (other than that tiny cira-1985 jar of Detail) and I sometimes feel compelled to come to its defense :chuckle: Or at least take up some of the slack for people who use and like it.



"Mom, I think somebody on the internet is wrong about something!"



[remainder of ranty post deleted...]

 

[RDAutosport]

Heh heh...people area always casting stones at Zymol. I don't even use the stuff (other than that tiny cira-1985 jar of Detail) and I sometimes feel compelled to come to its defense :chuckle: Or at least take up some of the slack for people who use and like it.

If this is in reference to my comments, I have no personal problem with Zymol or any wax manufacturer, I just find the excuse that Zymol gave as to why they aren't refilling a cube of Vintage as pretty suspect and that rarity of the wax used (if true) has nothing to do with its perceived quality.



Personally, I will never spend that much for Vintage. At that price it would have to be able to apply and remove itself monthly for me to consider its cost commensurate with its attributes and lifetime refills. The most expensive wax I own is Supernatural and although I believe it is a very high quality wax, I believe it is overpriced as are most boutique waxes.

"Mom, I think somebody on the internet is wrong about something!"

That is easily the funniest thing I have read in many months on the Internet....nice.







Regards,



Rich

 

[DM101]

If this is in reference to my comments, I have no personal problem with Zymol or any wax manufacturer, I just find the excuse that Zymol gave as to why they aren't refilling a cube of Vintage as pretty suspect and that rarity of the wax used (if true) has nothing to do with its perceived quality.

I have never said the wax is rare. I did say they harvest two times a year. I like to detail my cars. I bought Vintage based upon research, results that others had, and my enjoyment of detailing. I have stated in other post Zymol is lacking good customer service. :closed: