Two questions from a detailing newb

[bennylava]

1. Is there any point in spraying iron remover on the brakes? Seems pointless to me, but I see people doing it. The rotors just fling out iron constantly when in use, I can`t see how getting the iron off the brake system components is going to help anything.

2. Does covering the car in that foam actually do anything? We`ve all seen the videos where the whole outside of the car just turns into a foam that you can`t see through. What is this foam actually doing? Are we to believe that it`s somehow doing some of the work for us, and as such we won`t need to put in as much manual labor wiping down the car?

Thanks!

 

[Desertnate]

Here are my thoughts to the questions. Probably not the most popular opinion, but hey...we all have them!

1. I don`t think so. I DO use wheel cleaner on my wheels and brakes when washing, but I`ve never used an iron remover. A good wheel cleaner should get the wheels and calipers clean as long as you keep up with it and don`t let things get too grimy. Not every wheel gets you good access to the calipers, so occasionally it`s worth cleaning them with the wheel off, but again a good wheel cleaner should do the trick.

2. I`ve wondered the same thing. I think the idea is the foam does break down the dirt and makes the washing process more gentle/faster/easier. I don`t have any shade near my driveway, so I`ve never tried any foaming. Always figured it would dry on the car faster than I could wash it off. I can do a simple bucket wash pretty quickly and haven`t seen the need to foam. I think some folks foam AND bucket wash.

 

[noorth]

1. Is there any point in spraying iron remover on the brakes? Seems pointless to me, but I see people doing it. The rotors just fling out iron constantly when in use, I can`t see how getting the iron off the brake system components is going to help anything.

2. Does covering the car in that foam actually do anything? We`ve all seen the videos where the whole outside of the car just turns into a foam that you can`t see through. What is this foam actually doing? Are we to believe that it`s somehow doing some of the work for us, and as such we won`t need to put in as much manual labor wiping down the car?

Thanks!

1. No, just the wheels wells/rims.

2. I don`t think it does much personally. It was fun the first few times but basic foam as a pre-wash is a waste of time + resources if you ask me. Some people like to foam up there car and then immediately use a mitt. I`m going to give it a whirl soon.

 

[Accumulator]

1)There`s a product called "Hydes`s"..think that`s the name IIRC (sorry, not running out to the shop to check ) that`s made for this: you spray it on the rotors. I quit using it as *something* messed up the finish of the calipers my wife`s A8, coincidentally it happened when I used the Hyde`s. Never did it before, but *what a PIA*, had to get `em rebuilt/refinished with the car out of action for ages, stored on the lift until they came back. So use at your own peril, YMMV, etc. etc.

2) That`s not what *I* am after when I use my foamguns, but I do believe that it does a *LITTLE* (OK, very little..) bit of presoak-action. And if nothing else, it oughta impart some additional lubricity. Just don`t expect miracles.

 

[bennylava]

Ok well I think that answers my question for the most part, but it does raise another one for me:

Is there any real way to wash a car that doesn`t scratch the paint? It seems like a power washer is going to push some dirt particles into the clear coat before it blasts them off the car. And of course we all know that wiping a car just rubs dirt into the finish. These both clean the car, but they do some measure of damage to the clear coat.

Is there any way this can be avoided? Seems like the answer is no, but I just thought I`d ask.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

It sounds like you are looking for a reason not to clean your wheels or wash your car. Don`t do it if you don`t want to.

 

[noorth]

Ok well I think that answers my question for the most part, but it does raise another one for me:

Is there any real way to wash a car that doesn`t scratch the paint? It seems like a power washer is going to push some dirt particles into the clear coat before it blasts them off the car. And of course we all know that wiping a car just rubs dirt into the finish. These both clean the car, but they do some measure of damage to the clear coat.

Is there any way this can be avoided? Seems like the answer is no, but I just thought I`d ask.

You will most likely get some wash related defects.

Thats one reason many folks like to polish/correct their cars every 1-2 years IE a one step or multi step paint correction.

However, with an AIO like 3D Speed you can probably fly over the car twice a year and not have to worry about clear coat issues.

 

[Accumulator]

Is there any real way to wash a car that doesn`t scratch the paint?

Sure, mine will pass Dark Field/Point-Source Illumination inspections for years on end, and I let `em get *filthy* between washes.

Yeah, I gotta do a proper writeup sometime...

t seems like a power washer is going to push some dirt particles into the clear coat before it blasts them off the car.

NEVER happened to me. I can see how it`d be possible, but I`ve never experienced it in the least.

And of course we all know that wiping a car just rubs dirt into the finish.

Which is why I do the "dislodge and flush" approach using the foamgun. I got by fine for years without a pressure washer, but that does make it all a lot faster/easier.

"How bad do ya *want* it?" comes to mind though...I spent countless hours thinking on this stuff, and dozens of washes fine-tuning my technique. And I use a gazillon gallons of water per wash, along with over a pint of shampoo total each time. And even after being dialed-in for years, each moment is still *VERY* challenging/demanding as the slightest "oops!" will result in marring. NOT FUN by any means and if I weren`t trying to preserve the current vehicles the way I want `em...well, even I wouldn`t bother. Heh heh, I`m often tempted to lease a white Disposable Vehicle, run it through a tunnel-wash, and never give a [flip].

 

[bennylava]

It sounds like you are looking for a reason not to clean your wheels or wash your car. Don`t do it if you don`t want to.

lol no I can`t stand dirty cars so they`re getting washed one way or another.

"How bad do ya *want* it?" comes to mind though...I spent countless hours thinking on this stuff, and dozens of washes fine-tuning my technique. And I use a gazillon gallons of water per wash, along with over a pint of shampoo total each time. And even after being dialed-in for years, each moment is still *VERY* challenging/demanding as the slightest "oops!" will result in marring. NOT FUN by any means and if I weren`t trying to preserve the current vehicles the way I want `em...well, even I wouldn`t bother. Heh heh, I`m often tempted to lease a white Disposable Vehicle, run it through a tunnel-wash, and never give a [flip].

You sound like the person to ask: What would a perfect wash bay look like? If you were going to build it from the ground up and cost was of little/no concern, how would you do it? I mean what all would you include? I`m guessing it would have an overhead swing arm for the power washer. As well as a drain in the floor. And it would be indoors, so washing in the winter time wasn`t uncomfortable. But what else? I want to build one lol

 

[Coatings=crack]

If you wanna get an idea on how accumulator washes his car watch this video at the 8:04 mark. His method is similar but i believe is a little/ lot more labor intensive.

I alternate from method in video to bucket wash with about 10 wash mitts. If i use accumulator/ video metgod i use 5-7 mitts.

Audi R8 BLACKBIRD: Basic Car Wash Techniques - /DRIVE CLEAN - YouTube


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bill D]

Yep,that`s pretty much the ultimate wash for me. No marring and not quite as labor intensive as I thought.

 

[Oneheadlite]

1. Is there any point in spraying iron remover on the brakes? Seems pointless to me, but I see people doing it. The rotors just fling out iron constantly when in use, I can`t see how getting the iron off the brake system components is going to help anything.

2. Does covering the car in that foam actually do anything? We`ve all seen the videos where the whole outside of the car just turns into a foam that you can`t see through. What is this foam actually doing? Are we to believe that it`s somehow doing some of the work for us, and as such we won`t need to put in as much manual labor wiping down the car?

Thanks!

1. I wouldn`t bother with iron remover intentionally just on the brakes, but I use it on the wheels to help cut through the buildup from the brakes. Mainly when I`m planning on reapplying a LSP on the wheels.

2. I think it depends on what kind of foam you`re talking about, and for what approach.

I`ve never been a believer in the YouTube/Instagram "look at how foamy the car I`m washing is!" process of foam the car with a standard car wash soap and then bucket wash it. My detailing brain doesn`t understand what benefit/protection from marring those tiny little bubbles of soap are going to provide when you smash them with your wet wash mitt.

But, I do see the function when you talk about the Accumulator/Bill D method of using a foam gun (not pressure washer foam cannon) providing a constant stream of water/soap mix on the area you`re gently agitating with your wash media. At that level it`s almost functioning like industrial cutting equipment that has a constant supply of lubrication piped onto the cutting area - providing lubrication as well as rinsing away any damaging debris.

Also, if you have a soap specifically designed to be used as a pre-rinse foam, I`ve become a believer in that approach. The idea with a soap of this design is that you foam it onto the car, with the foam serving the function of allowing full contact/coverage of the paint and the soap does it`s magic (bonds to/lifts/helps remove dirt/debris). You then rinse it off with a pressure washer and proceed with your regular contact wash regimen.

I use the Griot`s Foaming Surface Wash for this approach. I bought it for two reasons - Admittedly I`m a large fan of the brand and am prone to buy any of their new stuff; also I was hoping to be able to do more frequent no/low contact washes. To be honest, I bought it highly suspicious about how well it could actually work (see my opinion above...). As it turns out, I`ve actually quite liked it. It`s a pretty gentle soap in the grand scheme of things, so it`s not going to break down heavy road film, but it does work well to lessen the amount of dirt (especially abrasives like dirt/sand) that you deal with during your wash process. When I pretreat with the Surface Wash, the wash bucket has notably less funk in it that it would during a normal wash, or even if I had only started off with a pressure washer rinse (yes, I`ve done comparos...). Again, it`s not a miracle product; but it`s gentle enough it`s not going to mess with whatever LSP you have, and in most cases I`d feel perfectly comfortable pulling the car into the garage and just doing a Rinseless wash.
I feel like if I had time to use it weekly (I drive 75-80 miles per day), I could probably actually get away with a lot of non-contact washes, but unfortunately I`m just not able to get to it that often.

(Brief side note regarding instructions for use of the Foaming Surface Wash - you foam the car first thing while the car is dry, starting at the bottom working your way up, allowing maximum dwell time for the soap to get to work. If the car is wet, the foam will just start to run off faster than it would otherwise. You then rinse off starting at the bottom again, work up, and final rinse top down).

Ok well I think that answers my question for the most part, but it does raise another one for me:

Is there any real way to wash a car that doesn`t scratch the paint? It seems like a power washer is going to push some dirt particles into the clear coat before it blasts them off the car. And of course we all know that wiping a car just rubs dirt into the finish. These both clean the car, but they do some measure of damage to the clear coat.

Is there any way this can be avoided? Seems like the answer is no, but I just thought I`d ask.

I think that the act of washing the car is largely quite safe if done responsibly. I would be willing to bet most folks induce marring during the drying phase - too much pressure/poor quality towels, etc.

My thoughts on your pressure washer question - I can see the theory of what you say, but I think in practice it`s highly unlikely you`re going to damage the paint from dirt during pressure washing. I would think it`d have to be a mud crusted off roader to induce damage that way. And in that case, I`d probably presoak the car to help soften it before washing.

 

[Accumulator]

You sound like the person to ask: What would a perfect wash bay look like? If you were going to build it from the ground up and cost was of little/no concern, how would you do it? I mean what all would you include? I`m guessing it would have an overhead swing arm for the power washer. As well as a drain in the floor. And it would be indoors, so washing in the winter time wasn`t uncomfortable. But what else? I want to build one lol

Heh heh, I`m tempted to say that no matter what ya do, or how much ya spend....you`ll always find stuff you should`ve done differently! But I did get pretty close to my ideal when I built the current shop here at the house.

Off the top of my head (sorry this is kinda disjointed ), what comes to mind is:

Lighting (both fluorescent and point-source), *floor drain* (which will require an oil-separator system like they have at commerical places), water and air on both sides so you don`t have to drag hoses around the vehicle. Having a *third* hose bib in the front/back would`ve been good for my undercarriage wand/pressure washer. Lots of electrical outlets with high-amp ratings for things like a pressure washer/steamer/extractor.

Bill D would add to get some kind of lift, but I never used the one I had in the previous shop so I didn`t do that. If I were doing it over, I really dunno if I`d get one or not...I`m kinda used to jacking them up. Which brings me to having floorjacks/stands on both sides to make the undercarriage/wells/etc. easier to get to.

Wash/rinse buckets on both sides just like the water/air/electrical...again to avoid dragging stuff around. (With the time it takes me to wash, every second I can save is helpful.)

Water heater, washer/dryer, HVAC, and a *bathroom* with an RO unit for drinking water. Separate softeners for the shop/house. Nonslip flooring that`s impervious to water, and I went with white walls for better visibility.

Lots of room! IME the shop is never big enough..."crap accumulates to fill the space available" and all that

I`d like to have a "big industrial shower curtain" to help contain any overspray, but I`ve gotten by without one for over 20 years with minimal "oops!" episodes.

That`s probably all the really important stuff...I kinda went nuts on this shop (bigger/nicer than my first house by a long shot) as compensation for my wife going nuts on the rest of the property (Heh heh, OK, OK...can`t blame Accumulatorette...we *both* went nuts on the whole shebang, but this is the Forever Home, at least until one of us dies).

 

[981 Cayman S]

2. Does covering the car in that foam actually do anything? We`ve all seen the videos where the whole outside of the car just turns into a foam that you can`t see through. What is this foam actually doing? Are we to believe that it`s somehow doing some of the work for us, and as such we won`t need to put in as much manual labor wiping down the car?

Thanks!

A few anecdotal notes from someone who has been using a pressure washer & foam cannon for the past 2-3 years and now washes mostly w just a hose at home:

1. I miss my pressure washer *FAR* more than the foam cannon that attached to it.
2. When I used the pressure washer and foam cannon I generally only did a 1-bucket wash (heresy, I know :lol: ) and never really found much residual dirt on the bottom of my white wash bucket
3. Using just a garden hose I have moved to actual 2-bucket washes and now make sure to check buckets as each one now needs wiping out/cleaning before a wash. Not a lot of dirt in there but a dark/light film of dirt.

That`s what I`ve noticed since stopping with the pressure washer/foam cannon. My cars used to see about 400 miles a week and now about 50 miles a week, w little to no freeway these days. Not sure what to make of it all but it is definitely something I`ve noticed since changing wash routines. :shrug:

Looking to hopefully better `washing days` next Summer I see the pressure washer piece as being functionally advantageous and the foam cannon being an efficiency/convenience item that will speed up soap distribution and insure a little more safety w/ respect to marring. I am far more careful w/ my wash technique now than I was when using pressure washer/foam.

There will obviously be times where a good soak w foam helps (lotsa mud, bugs, bird bombs...the "why you soak a frying pan in the sink for a bit after cooking eggs in it" scenario`s) but for regular maintenance washes/getting things clean so you can squirt some fun stuff at the paint, pressure washer trumps foam cannon for me.

Edit: I`ll go back to using both when possible but if given a choice between *only* one or the other, pressure washer gets the nod.

 

[bennylava]

...
Off the top of my head (sorry this is kinda disjointed ), what comes to mind is:

...

Thank you for the reply! The reason I`m asking is because I`m actually going to build one about 8 months from now. And I`m not opposed to spending the necessary money to build a really nice one. For me, "nice" just means super convenient. Real easy to do a good wash job with minimal time spent doing it. And hopefully minimal mess. So I`d like to see all this in some form of a picture, to hand over to the builder. I can have someone make the picture/plans, but I`ll need a list to give them. So from your post, the list would look something like:

1. Floor drain (with oil separator)
2. Water and air hoses on both sides. Coming from the ceiling for convenience
3. Ten 70 amp outlets on each side (having extra is good here)
4. Florescent and point source lighting (point source means pole mounted lights I can move around?)
5. Nonslip flooring
6. Size... but how big? Maybe 30`x36` would be ideal? Or 40x40? I wonder how much space you really need if you`re gonna have the curtain.
7. A huge shower curtain. (I love this idea. It just sort of closes around the car when you`re spraying stuff... correct?)
8. Plenty of shelving along the walls for storage
9. Heated power washer on a swing arm?
10. Water heater (for power washer I assume?)
11. Washer/dryer
12. Buckets and shelving on both sides for all wash equipment like more buckets and towels, soap, etc
13. Jacks and jackstands (yeah i prefer those too as opposed to lifts)
14. HVAC - (will already have for the workshop area but this car wash may be a different room)
15. Anything else anyone would add? To make the washes go as quickly as possible?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

3. Ten 70 amp outlets on each side (having extra is good here)

I`m presuming you meant 20 amp outlets. If you`re going to have 20 outlets in a relatively small area, you won`t want them all on the same circuit breaker, maybe 5 breakers, and you don`t want all the ones on the same breaker next to each other...or maybe you do, depending on how you think you`re going to plug things in. I had an electrician working at my house once and he had built his dream garage and had each outlet on it`s own breaker...but...he was an electrician. If you leave it to the builder he`ll put them all on the same breaker.

 

[Accumulator]

I kinda veered off into stuff that`s not *really* related to the washbay...sorry

Yeah, agree completely..all about *convenience* and making it time/effort-efficient.

The "point source" lighting I have in the shop is just a bunch of hanging incandescents (modern version would be LEDs), which work fine for me, BUT...you don`t want water to hit `em when they`re hot so they stay off during the actual wash. Note I also have fluorescents on the walls; I like, and need, a *LOT* of light and I`ve never had my shops "too bright" yet.

And/but, yeah...have lots of separate circuits or you`ll be tripping breakers all the time (my builder`s original electrician [screwed] that up so badly, utterly deviating from my printed specs, that I tossed him off the property and brought in somebody else).

For a single-car washbay the 30 x 36 would probably be fine. Hard to say since, without having that curtain, I can use as much of the (pretty big) shop as I want as long as I don`t get overspray on the other vehicles. ALthough...that 30" dimension, I dunno...that might be a little tight. Eh, I`m used to *LOTS* of elbow room, like...virtually unlimited...so I`m spoiled. Or at least I was until I,uhm...accumulated...a few too many vehicles

Yeah, the curtain would go/protect any area where overspray would be an issue. For me that`d mean running it down the middle of the shop floor, but that`d depend on the actual building/layout. Those curtains can be pricey! And they require a cable/track/somesuch that might be a bit tricky to figure out just right the first time.

I wouldn`t want shelving anywhere near where I`m actually working as I`d worry about overspray/etc. I just have bare walls (other than the lighting/etc.) with Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic for the lowermost 4`. I don`t need to store much Product around the washbay as I keep my every-wash-products on polypropylene carts (again, one on each side plus a third one for other stuff).

Towels are in big Rubbermaid trashcans (color-coded) on casters. They`re not right there in my washbay, but they could be since they`re waterproof.

The whole idea behind "what`s actually *in* the washbay area" is related to "would I care if it gets soaking wet?". IME, and I`m awfully careful, sooner or later some hose/etc. will fail, or user-error will rear its ugly head, and it *will* happen..everything soaked in a big way.

No need for a heated pressure washer as running warm water through mine has always been sufficient. And I`m using the cheapest/weakest pressure washer from AR and it`s *plenty* for washing cars...and safe on the older ones where I could easily do damage.

I just HVAC the whole building, with zones to direct what happens where.

Hope the above cleared up anything that was fuzzy.

 

[bennylava]

I had an electrician working at my house once and he had built his dream garage and had each outlet on it`s own breaker...but...he was an electrician. If you leave it to the builder he`ll put them all on the same breaker.

Yes I had planned on that cause the shop I`ve got now just keeps flipping breakers. I always have to make a plan to run my heaters in the winter lol. So I guess this thing is going to have a very large breaker box. Maybe multiple small ones? Cause the wash bay is only part of the building. The rest will be an automotive workshop. I just need a wash bay attached cause I don`t like the way most places wash cars and pro detailers are too much to pay for frequently.

The "point source" lighting I have in the shop is just a bunch of hanging incandescents (modern version would be LEDs), which work fine for me, BUT...you don`t want water to hit `em when they`re hot so they stay off during the actual wash. Note I also have fluorescents on the walls; I like, and need, a *LOT* of light and I`ve never had my shops "too bright" yet.

Ok so various cool looking light bulbs hanging down from the ceiling at different lengths. And a huge white curtain that`s translucent, on a circular track. You park the car directly below this track and walk the curtain all around the car. I gotta get creative here. This area has to look cool. Why? I dunno.. I want it to! The truth is I love spending a lot of time in my shop, so it`s well worth the money to me if the place looks neato.

So if you have any ideas that you think would make it look awesomer, I`d love to hear them! (I`m thinking about white subway tiles for walls in the wash bay)

Although...that 30" dimension, I dunno...that might be a little tight. Eh, I`m used to *LOTS* of elbow room, like...virtually unlimited...so I`m spoiled. Or at least I was until I,uhm...accumulated...a few too many vehicles

I can expand it if necessary. Not really a problem. What size would you save gives you the infinite elbow room? 45`x45`? Any extra space won`t go to waste, I`ll just put some necessary shelving there, or something. Although if it`s that big, perhaps this giant shower curtain idea isn`t really necessary. Although I`d still like to do the curtain just for fun. Maybe just use a larger curtain track.

Towels are in big Rubbermaid trashcans (color-coded) on casters. They`re not right there in my washbay, but they could be since they`re waterproof.

So one for washing towels, one for drying towels, one for dirty towels.. any other bins?

The whole idea behind "what`s actually *in* the washbay area" is related to "would I care if it gets soaking wet?". IME, and I`m awfully careful, sooner or later some hose/etc. will fail, or user-error will rear its ugly head, and it *will* happen..everything soaked in a big way.

I guess the only things you might have around that you`d want keep from getting wet are: Product, your towels, your detailing extractor, any other tools or shelving that might be around. I`m trying to get the design all set up in my mind for how to arrange this thing.

I`m thinking the main thing is the curtain, cause you could just have everything else on the outside of the curtain. When you`re done washing, simply move the curtain. Now you can detail the rest of the car. And if you need anything during the wash, it`s all just right there on the other side of the curtain. Maybe the styling of the wash bay could be something like the early 1900`s. Low hanging light bulbs, white subway tiles, giant curtain, and a bay door on the end to drive out of.

No need for a heated pressure washer as running warm water through mine has always been sufficient. And I`m using the cheapest/weakest pressure washer from AR and it`s *plenty* for washing cars...and safe on the older ones where I could easily do damage.

I`m hoping for find a good electric power washer, that also works with a long swing arm. The less I deal with cables and hoses, the better. Currently all my air hoses and extension cords come out of the ceiling and roll back up there when I`m done. Huge time saver. I would like to continue that trend. How many PSI is your current power washer? I want to make sure I have plenty of pressure for washing cars, but not so much that I risk damaging the paint.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Yes I had planned on that cause the shop I`ve got now just keeps flipping breakers. I always have to make a plan to run my heaters in the winter lol. So I guess this thing is going to have a very large breaker box. Maybe multiple small ones? Cause the wash bay is only part of the building. The rest will be an automotive workshop. I just need a wash bay attached cause I don`t like the way most places wash cars and pro detailers are too much to pay for frequently.

I don`t know about "very large" but from the sound of it you`d want a subpanel for this area. If you have electric heaters you`d probably want to run them on the higher voltage you have, probably 230 or 277 if it`s a newer building, rather than 120. You might want to look into a gas space heater if you`ve got natural gas at this location. I`m expecting Accumulator to chime in also on this electrical stuff.

 

[William_Wallace]

It sounds like you are looking for a reason not to clean your wheels or wash your car. Don`t do it if you don`t want to.

made my day! Lmao