Topping an LSP

[BIOLINK]

I want your thoughts on this.

Why do we continue buy and use LSP products (sealants and waxes) that we feel need to be topped with another LSP product? I'm not talking about companion products that prep the surface for the next step, like Klasse twins. I'm talking about topping a legit sealant or wax with something entirely different made by another company. Some of the old timers like Todd or Street Dreams will remember a rant thread on Autopia a few years back regarding this same question, but this still puzzles me. In my estimation this all started with a technique of topping Klasse AIO with P21S. I think this was called World's Greatest Shine, or something like that.

There are a few reasons this topper business puzzles me. First, what are we saying about the base LSP when we cover it with a shine we like better? Second, the longevity of the second LSP is limited to its ability to bond to the first LSP, and the first LSP's ability to bond to the paint. It just cracks me up, why not just go straight to the second LSP?

These types of combos I can understand.

• Klasse twins or Werkstatt Prime/Jett - These are meant as a prep and a sealant - Look great too
• Blackfire PnS topped with Wet Diamond or Crystal Seal - Same polymer family and designed to bond together.

I get lost in the rationale when I see cross pollenation of different companies products that were not designed to go together. Help me understand it. It just seems that if you don't like the way an LSP looks, it shouldn't be used in the first place.

Finally, I certainly can't prove it because I am not a chemist, but I have seen that when I top Werkstatt with Fuzion, the Werkstatt was compromised by the Fuzion. I know some of you are going to argue that, but that is my experience. I will admit that I have fallen into the topper trap. I did after all cover Jett with Fuzion. I like the look of Fuzion and the longevity of Jett. But like I said, the Werkstatt doesn't last as long when I add Fuzion. Do you see where I am going? So what then to I use to get both, Blackfire. ALL BY ITSELF, NO WAX. Just my .02

Jump in and thrash me all you want with your favorite combo and thoughts. I welcome the discourse and will not flame anyone for it. I may secretly laugh though. :rofl

 

[Kitoy22]

Just my honest opinion here, I think what others and myself are looking for are the best of both worlds, durability of a sealant and beauty of wax. But again it comes to personal preference here. But now i came to a point that i want to maximize each LSP i am putting on my client's car or even my own. If my primary goal is a durable protection then I put on a durable LSP regardless of how it looks, i am not going top it with anything that would alter its protective properties (slickness, water behaviour, etc) just to get the look that I want. But if my priority is looks then it will be a different story then, i will use a combination (Glaze/LSP) or 1 LSP that will give me what i am looking for.

 

[BIOLINK]

Just my honest opinion here, I think what others and myself are looking for are the best of both worlds, durability of a sealant and beauty of wax. But again it comes to personal preference here. But now i came to a point that i want to maximize each LSP i am putting on my client's car or even my own. If my primary goal is a durable protection then I put on a durable LSP regardless of how it looks, i am not going top it with anything that would alter its protective properties (slickness, water behaviour, etc) just to get the look that I want. But if my priority is looks then it will be a different story then, i will use a combination (Glaze/LSP) or 1 LSP that will give me what i am looking for.

I'm just not convinced that LSP's work as well together as some give them credit. I believe they do alter the properties of each other.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

I want your thoughts on this.

Why do we continue buy and use LSP products (sealants and waxes) that we feel need to be topped with another LSP product? I'm not talking about companion products that prep the surface for the next step, like Klasse twins. I'm talking about topping a legit sealant or wax with something entirely different made by another company. Some of the old timers like Todd or Street Dreams will remember a rant thread on Autopia a few years back regarding this same question, but this still puzzles me. In my estimation this all started with a technique of topping Klasse AIO with P21S. I think this was called World's Greatest Shine, or something like that.

If Street Dreams is an old timer, than I must be REALLY old! :rofl This is like hearing a song I grew up to on the CLASSIC ROCK station! (Note: Dave Saunders is clearly one of the best and most respected detailers for good reason, he is amazing! I am simply pointing out that I can remember when he first started.)

For a history lesson, the first real topping used to be Pinnacle Souveran over Klasse (this pre-dated the P21s fad). The P21s "Perfect Shine" was a spin on the Souveran ideal. However if you have ever topped Klasse with either Souveran or P21s (I like Souveran for darker colors and P21s for brighter colors) I believe you can see what the fuss was/is about. It just looks great.

There are a few reasons this topper business puzzles me. First, what are we saying about the base LSP when we cover it with a shine we like better?

We aren't necessarily covering the first coat completely and some (if not most) of the enhancement from the first coat could shine through. For example, using the previous example of Souveran over the Klasse Twins, there is no doubt to my eyes that the side with the Klasse Twins first is glossier (while keeping Souveran's incredible depth). Since you are applying Souveran over a brighter, more reflective surface, you will end up with a brighter more reflective finish. This is similar to polishing the paint first, it going to look better, even after putting a wax on.

Second, the longevity of the second LSP is limited to its ability to bond to the first LSP, and the first LSP's ability to bond to the paint. It just cracks me up, why not just go straight to the second LSP?

The first part of your statement is really dependant on how uniformily the first product you apply bonds to the surface. At the microscopic level there is still surface area for the second layer to bond, for the most part. With three different polymers, BLACKFIRE sealants offer very little (at the microscopic level) areas for additional products to bond to.

But yes, in most cases, the foundation (first product applied) will ultimately determine the longevity of the total process. (This is not always the case though).

I get lost in the rationale when I see cross pollenation of different companies products that were not designed to go together. Help me understand it. It just seems that if you don't like the way an LSP looks, it shouldn't be used in the first place.

I have a friend who is chef at a 5 star restaurant in Orlando. When he mixes and makes sauces it is not uncommon for him to mix several different brands of a similar product, like Olive Oil for example. To his developed palette, he can taste the slightly different flavors from each, and mixes to find what he believes is the best combination. This could be applied to artists mixing similar colors of paint to find the exact hue they want.

The final look of the paint is not determined by the final LSP, but is a combination of the polishing and previous products applied. Just like polished paint shines through the LSP, previously applied products shine through. By layering products that are compatible with each other we can 'tune' the look to our desire.

Finally, I certainly can't prove it because I am not a chemist, but I have seen that when I top Werkstatt with Fuzion, the Werkstatt was compromised by the Fuzion. I know some of you are going to argue that, but that is my experience. I will admit that I have fallen into the topper trap. I did after all cover Jett with Fuzion. I like the look of Fuzion and the longevity of Jett. But like I said, the Werkstatt doesn't last as long when I add Fuzion. Do you see where I am going? So what then to I use to get both, Blackfire. ALL BY ITSELF, NO WAX. Just my .02

This is so dependent of the solvents and chemicals used in the products that is almost impossible to determine what works best with out some testing.

 

[TroyScherer]

Hmm...

I really like this conversation as I am getting to the point where I am beginning to believe there is no reason to top my "LSP" with anything. I guess the real question is do you consider your sealant (BFWD, Klasse, Menz PL, etc..) an LSP?

I have started to consider them more like an extra protection layer compared to an LSP. Truth be told on most daily drivers I do I will simply use a sealant for the protection and ease of use. As most customers don't really know, understand, or see a difference between a sealant or a wax. Heck most don't eaves care about the beading or sheeting characteristics.

For my own vehicles I will layer certain products. A sealant for extended protection and then a wax for beauty or for my own relaxations and enjoyment. I enjoy the process so I will layer new products eery so often just to do it. Not necessarily because it will change the overall look or performance.

 

[BIOLINK]

Todd, I don't agree with the analogy of mixing food ingrediants or paint colors. By that arguement, I could take Klasse, Wet Diamond, and whatever and mix it all together. Maybe I will try it. With regard to the Perfect Shine, I tried it and didn't see it. I guess my eye isn't trained well enough.

My point is, on most products labels the manufacturer recommends applying to clean well prepped paint, not wax or polymers.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Todd, I don't agree with the analogy of mixing food ingrediants or paint colors. By that arguement, I could take Klasse, Wet Diamond, and whatever and mix it all together. Maybe I will try it. With regard to the Perfect Shine, I tried it and didn't see it. I guess my eye isn't trained well enough.

My point is, on most products labels the manufacturer recommends applying to clean well prepped paint, not wax or polymers.

I wasn't suggesting you mix the products like ingredients. Where I was going was that we all like to flavor our food in certain manners, the same with topping with wax, sealant, or your favorite combination of both.

Waxes and sealants are obviously extremely clear, most of the gloss and reflection comes from what is below the wax or sealant layer. This is why polishing paint has such a dramatic effect on the final appearance of the paint.

Taking that a step further, if you use a sealant that increases the reflectivity (to what ever degree) you now have a new 'standard'. Topping this with a wax (assuming that the wax is compatible ) means you are topping a more reflective surface, which in turn will look more reflective than the area with out the sealant underneath.

I don't necessarily believe in the trained eye, it is a matter that we all have different levels of sensory perception. Top this with the fact that we all have different tastes, and it is only a question you will be able to answer for yourself (which it sounds like you did).

 

[BIOLINK]

I wasn't suggesting you mix the products like ingredients. Where I was going was that we all like to flavor our food in certain manners, the same with topping with wax, sealant, or your favorite combination of both.

Waxes and sealants are obviously extremely clear, most of the gloss and reflection comes from what is below the wax or sealant layer. This is why polishing paint has such a dramatic effect on the final appearance of the paint.

Taking that a step further, if you use a sealant that increases the reflectivity (to what ever degree) you now have a new 'standard'. Topping this with a wax (assuming that the wax is compatible ) means you are topping a more reflective surface, which in turn will look more reflective than the area with out the sealant underneath.

I don't necessarily believe in the trained eye, it is a matter that we all have different levels of sensory perception. Top this with the fact that we all have different tastes, and it is only a question you will be able to answer for yourself (which it sounds like you did).

Uncle!

I was being a bit facetious with the suggestion of mixing the sealants.

I get the idea of using a sealant for protection, even if the look is not as warm or deep as a wax. And I get that some like to improve the appearance of the sealant by using a wax. It's just that with my "experiments" I have seen that the topper at least marginally affects the sealant. I love to wax the car, and honestly the only way I am going to use my product is to double up. But seriously, don't you just sometimes giggle when you read the posts with some of the combos that folks come up with? I mean if you are topping an LSP because it admittedly doesn't last long, why are you using it? If you lay down a base of the most durable product you have and let it cure, then improve the warmth with a thin coat of nuba, go nuts.

VIVA whiplash!

I was hoping a few guys would list a combo they like and believe works......

 

[Niebelung]

The beauty of detailing is that the final look/feel is intrinsically subjective and not quantifiable. Like food, wine, art etc, it's up to the craftsman and connoisseur to find a combination that is pleasing to them.

And that's why we buy so many products; the discovery is more than half the fun =)

 

[TroyScherer]

I was hoping a few guys would list a combo they like and believe works......

My Ultimate Shine:
Klasse HGSG x 2-3 / Colli #845


Deep Wet Look:
Prima Amigo / Menz PL or BFWD / Prima Banana Gloss

 

[blk5.0]

The beauty of detailing is that the final look/feel is intrinsically subjective and not quantifiable. Like food, wine, art etc, it's up to the craftsman and connoisseur to find a combination that is pleasing to them.

And that's why we buy so many products; the discovery is more than half the fun =)

True words

 

[Orinda Auto Detail]

If I'm doing full correction i always IPA serval times after polishing make sure the cars as perfect as I can get it then I
Wolfgangfuzion- then Pinnacle I on darker colors and Pinnacle II on brighter colors. I can see the difference and Usually will let fuzion cure for couple hours befor putting on the Pinnacle.
Very expensive combo but I've played with soooooo many different ones and that seems to give the most "pop" and far as durability I do this 2 times a year to my personal vehicle(look to avatar) and for a silver car I get people always asking me how i got it to look so good even though I go weeks with out washing it. And black one's my customers always tell they get complimented everytime they park anywhere after that. For a garage kept car I'd say with regular washing with a ph balanced soap and proper way of doing it this would protect your paint for 6-8 months easy. Daily drivers though unless the person doesn't want to listen just use a straight sealant its good enough for most.
My car after last time light color

SL customers Dark color