To the Zaino Police...

To possibly salvage some useful conversation, is it possible the old wisdom about polymers and oils simply isn't true? Sal did not say it wasn't oil, rather he said it was a re-wetting agent. Perhaps he doesn't want to delve into the formula too much, or perhaps someone didn't ask him the right question (as it's not like he's actively involved here, he may have no idea anyone was asking specifically about oil).



People talk about oils and polymers like it's some universal absolute. But is it really?



Is paint a polymer? It links together, right? Well, can paint bond together in the presence of oils? #7 is oily, right? But it's also paintable. How can that be?



Even when paint fish-eyes over something, did it not bond due to the substance that caused the fish-eye? I mean, is the paint there just a colored dust, or did it actually bond together, but just doesn't sit flush on the panel?



If Zaino does have oils in it, then maybe it's happy-day time for us because no longer would we feel it a requirement to wash the car 3 times before using it. I could polish my car, and then Zaino it, and that would be that. I wouldn't then go inside and worry away that it wasn't bonding and that my car would be vulnerable to all the evils of the environment as soon as I back it out of the garage.



How come no one is more interested in this? Where are the folks that badger and badger other companies about their ingredients? Aren't they now even slightly curious about what's in Zaino? Not that anyone should go badger Sal, but no one has even thought about asking him more specifically about whether the re-wetting agent is actually an oil. No one seems particularly interested at all... They only seem interested in who said what or who started what. Nothing anyone finds out will change how Zaino works, but maybe it could change how some folks apply it. :nixweiss



There have been a few people of recent who mentioned that they use Zaino right after polishing and haven't had any issues of note. Perhaps the whole oil/polymer issue was incorrect. Or perhaps it isn't. One things for sure, the next car I polish out, I'll sure as heck be breaking out the Zaino to try. I'd use it a lot more if I thought it would work directly over a polish, and now I'm starting to think maybe it will. :xyxthumbs :wavey
 
Aurora40 said:


How come no one is more interested in this? Where are the folks that badger and badger other companies about their ingredients? Aren't they now even slightly curious about what's in Zaino? Not that anyone should go badger Sal, but no one has even thought about asking him more specifically about whether the re-wetting agent is actually an oil. No one seems particularly interested at all... They only seem interested in who said what or who started what. Nothing anyone finds out will change how Zaino works, but maybe it could change how some folks apply it. :nixweiss



There have been a few people of recent who mentioned that they use Zaino right after polishing and haven't had any issues of note. Perhaps the whole oil/polymer issue was incorrect. Or perhaps it isn't. One things for sure, the next car I polish out, I'll sure as heck be breaking out the Zaino to try. I'd use it a lot more if I thought it would work directly over a polish, and now I'm starting to think maybe it will. :xyxthumbs :wavey
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I am perplexed as well why more people aren't interested in this. I have posted a couple of threads on this and the response has been underwhelming.



I have used Zaino on and off for quite a while now and have always just accepted as part of the process that all oils had to be removed for it to bond properly. Recent revalations that there are people out there that are putting Zaino directly over 3M SMR at Sal's suggestion have gotten me curious about this issue.
 
Aurora40 said:
...is it possible the old wisdom about polymers and oils simply isn't true?
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Oh, oils and polymers can mix. In fact, they can be one and the same thing. Pentaerythritol for example is an oil polymer. So is motor oil. A polymer is nothing more then a large molecule made up of linked smaller molecules. There' nothing inherent anti-oil about it.



I'd be curious about the oil in Zaino products, but it's not a do or die to me. It wouldn't cause me to use, or not use their products. Just an "oh" sort of thing to me.



As for using Zaino over a polish, why not try it? If it works, great! If not, no big deal. It's not going to damage your paint so you've nothing to lose but some time and effort.
 
rjstaaf said:
I have used Zaino on and off for years and have always just accepted as part of the process that all oils had to be removed for it to bond properly. Recent revalations that there are people out there that are putting Zaino directly over 3M SMR at Sal's suggestion have gotten me curious about this issue.
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http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37757



dternst said:
You can't apply Zaino over 3M without first washing the car to remove the oils and fillers.



Perhaps you misunderstood Sal?
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http://www.autopia.org/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=361754



dternst said:
Zaino likes to have a surface free of oils, fillers, and waxes to bond properly to the surface. SMR contains oils and fillers, stated in MSDS. It's therefore necessary to lightly wash the surface to remove the oils prior to applying Zaino.
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http://www.autopia.org/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=361754



dternst said:
The fillers in 3M products are other oils.
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Dternst,



It is easy to explain away by saying that maybe they misunderstood Sal but, at least 3 people that I can think of at the moment have said that Sal told them it was OK to apply Zaino directly over 3M SMR.



Have you tried it?
 
I keep forgetting to preface that all this information is coming from Zaino. I cut and paste this information directly from the email into the forum. This way, nothing gets lost in translation.



Again, I believe Sal was misunderstood, misquoted, or his comments were taken out of context.
 
~One man’s opinion / observations ~



This is what I do to prepare a surface for a polymer sealant inc. Zanio (but then I’m just a dumb architect and not a chemist so I ust do 'what works for me')



a) Surface Preparation-



1. Wash vehicle with a good quality car wash concentrate 1.0oz per 2 gallon (Zaino Z-7)

2. Rinse vehicle thoroughly.

3. Remove any imbedded contaminants with detailing clay (Clay Magicâ„¢) and a lubrication solution 5:1 (Distilled water/Wooliteâ„¢)

4. Remove any surface imperfections with a suitable machine polish (Groit’s Machine Polish #1, 2 or 3)

Or a swirl mark remover (3Mâ„¢'s PI-III Machine Glaze, P/N 05397)

6. Clean paint film surface with a pre-wax cleaner (P21Sâ„¢ Gloss Enhancing Paintwork Cleaner)

7.Lightly wash paint surface with a diluted car wash concentrate (Zaino Z-7) 1.0oz per gallon

8.Dry thoroughly and start applying Zaino Z-5 / Z-2 with ZFX.



This preparation method provides the resin (paint) system with necessary oils, plus you'll get some extra gloss/shine and added durability.



~Hope this helps~



Experience unshared; is knowledge wasted…/ Jon

justadumbarchitect * so I question everything *
 
dternst said:
I keep forgetting to preface that all this information is coming from Zaino. I cut and paste this information directly from the email into the forum. This way, nothing gets lost in translation.



Again, I believe Sal was misunderstood, misquoted, or his comments were taken out of context.
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To be fair, MattZ28 is the one that actually talked to him (in the thread you referenced). But you are saying he is misquoting or taking him out of context. How can you say that unless you were in on the conversation Matt had with him? Maybe he told you something different than he told Matt. Or maybe Matt read something into it that wasn't there, but then it should be Matt who points that out.



BlackRegal, thanks for the reply. I understand what you are saying, and I've heard that before on Autopia. However, how does paint work then? And how can it work over body-shop-safe products that clearly have oils in them? DetailKing mentioned "oils" in detailing products and then mentioned silicone as one. I'm not sure if that's an oil or not, but it also doesn't stop paint from bonding. In fact, anti-fisheye added to paint is actually silicone of some sort. Maybe paint's not a polymer, though, I really have no idea. I'm definitely not Mr Chemistry, mainly because I never pursued it, though I did take some engineering chem courses way back when.



As to the info about Dawn turning people off, that's true. It does for some people, as does the really lengthy prep process in general. But that doesn't mean that it's a necessity or the gospel. It is possible Sal has some info on his website that is not 100% accurate. It's possible he thinks it's the best way to apply it, but that in actuality it is not. It's also possible he put it up as a sort of tip, and didn't realize it turned some folks off, or didn't realize people would think it's a requirement all the time. It isn't the preferred way for some folks here who use regular carwash instead of Dawn, or who use AIO as a prep step, etc. Different stroke for different folks. I certainly don't mean it as a bash of Sal or anything like that. But I also don't feel he's 100% right 100% of the time, no one is.
 
Aurora40 said:
However, how does paint work then? And how can it work over body-shop-safe products that clearly have oils in them? DetailKing mentioned "oils" in detailing products and then mentioned silicone as one. I'm not sure if that's an oil or not, but it also doesn't stop paint from bonding. In fact, anti-fisheye added to paint is actually silicone of some sort. Maybe paint's not a polymer, though, I really have no idea. I'm definitely not Mr Chemistry, mainly because I never pursued it, though I did take some engineering chem courses way back when.
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If I'm reading your post correctly, you're asking why paint can be applied on TOP of body-shop safe products? I never knew people actually did this. As far as I know, body-shop safe just means the product contains either paintable polymers or oils which do not seal in the fresh paint's solvents when used AFTER the paint is applied.



As far as I know, in order for freshly applied paint to bond properly, the substrate has to be prepped properly using a product like PrepSol to make it free and clear of everything.
 
Does it honestly matter if the product contains oils if it performs the way it was intended? Granted, what was claimed is that it didn't have oils, but if it did, would it matter?
 
Here's a defination for "body shop safe" from the AutoMagice site...



"The labels on most products that say body shop safe are referring to the silicone content of the product. Body shop safe products contain NO silicones. Silicones create fish eyes or distortions in the paint that are very unattractive. Paint will not stick to a surface with silicone on it."



I'm wondering if "paintable" and "body shop safe" are two exclusive terms.



Hope this helps...
 
Certainly no one would glaze a car in order to paint it. But my understanding is that they will not interfere in the painting process. For example, a car is in the paint shop being finished, and was polished out with Speed Glaze or coated with #7. Another car is ready to be painted and has been prepped (this prepwork is not, afiak, done in the paint booth as you would contaminate it). Someone walks by and bumps up against the finished car and then bumps up against the prepped car. The small product transfer will not result in the paint bubbling where this occured because the product used to prep the freshly painted car was a paintable product.



Certainly the terms mean different things to different companies, but some Meguiar's products contain both the "body shop safe" ok, and also say specifically "paintable" on them.



I didn't mean to imply one would use DACP or Hand Polish to prep a car before a paint or anything. That would be crazy. But they can be under the paint and not ruin the paint job, from my understanding.
 
BlackRegal said:
My understanding is similar to Intermezzo's. The term "paintable" indicates the product is safe for use over fresh paint. It does not indicate that paint can be applied directly over the product... the surface should still be cleaned with the appropriate solvents to remove and surface contamination. It's a misleading term, but is widely used.
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It also means it doesn't contain fisheye inducing silicones. No good body shop wants anything that can cause fisheyes or adhesion problems anywhere in their shop.
 
I've read through most of the posts in this thread, and in an attempt to keep things simple:



According to one definition, if you break down the word: polymer, you get "poly" = many, and "mer" = units. Simply, a polymer is a substance composed of "many units" **of the same molecule**



So in effect, EVERYTHING is a polymer of a sorts...steel is a polymer made of many steel molecules, wood is a polymer containing many wood molecules etc., etc.



If Zaino does, or does not contain oils isn't important. What is important is Does it work, or does it not work?



MAYBE (and this is just my own guess), a DAWN wash is recommended because it is a way for Sal to limit some of the variables that could affect the performance of his product. We all agree that DAWN is very damaging to most coatings, and will nearly always remove everything on a cars surface...using this reasoning, using DAWN will strip away any products that (for whatever reason) may not be compatible with Zaino and adversely affect how it works.
 
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