To Tell the Truth?

One of the big problems with General Motors (and to a lesser degree, Ford and Chrysler) is that this year, the cost of funding their retiree's medical and pension payments will equal $5.5 BILLION dollars. Yes. $5.5 BILLION.



The majority of the problems that the Big Three have encountered are directly related to the UAW. Unions may have had their place at one time, but unfortunately they are not capable of competing in the global economy. For those of you that follow Jerry Flint's writing in Forbes, he's been an outspoken critic of how non-competitive the Big Three are in the global marketplace due to their business model. Of course, when the average line worker at GM is earning upwards of $60k, it won't take long to become 'non-competitive'.



Certainly, runaway success stories like the Olds Firenza, Cadillac Catera, and Oldsmobile Silhouette have contributed to the General's problems over the last 30 years. I myself drive a '99 Chevy Suburban, and have been extremely pleased with its performance. And I suppose for everybody that has a good story to tell about an import, there's stories like my mom's Acura Legend blowing a piston through the block -- at 89,000 miles. So much for quality control, huh?
 
First, I'm noticing a few posts getting nasty. That sort of thing never ends well. At the best, it gets a good thread locked. At worst, people leave the community. Let's please keep this an objective look at the General Motors Company.



I would like to address a few points



* One common statement made by loyal owners to GM is something like this, "Well, you've just had a bad experience...every car maker makes bad cars" While it's absolutely true that every car maker makes bad cars, there seems to be a disproportionate number of bad GM cars. You don't hear nearly the groundswell of hatred toward Volkswagon for a reason.



I've also noticed a recent backlash online of mostly older GM drivers who remember the good old days and "would never buy foreign" toward Hondas and to a lesser extent Toyota. Leaving aside their objections to the sticker and wing kids, there are some who just dislike imports for the sake of disliking them. Typically there's some jingoism involved. Their daddy worked for GM and therefore, it's all they buy. Or they just want to "buy American". They usually forget that my Honda is comprised of more American parts than their Geo Metro. It was also built here in the USA. Furthermore, my friend's Toyota Tundra was made here in the greatest state of the union also. Heck, Chevrolet was a French brand before it was swallowed by the GM monolith.



So I want to make it clear that these threads shouldn't be about buying only American (which BTW is a pretty outdated worldview anyway), but about watching a company fend for it's life, just like K-Mart.



* I don't know how Toyota and Honda and Suburu pay their workers. I can't imagine that they do the whole union thing though. When I was born in 1980, a friend of the family worked for GM in Detroit. He was making over $13/hour. This was before the minimum wage topped $4. That's an unbelievably high wage for guys who push buttons and use torque wrenches.



* The central question to the thread is: Is it a good (profitable) idea to admit that you made 2 decades worth of mistakes? Can you remember another company that ever did that? I can remember Tylenol appologizing for the poison scare and taking a big loss by recalling all potential risks. But that was a company taking responsibility for a 2 month quality control problem. Not 20 years.



I'm interested to see if they can pull this out, or if this is the first sign of a dying giant. According the article, 3 out of 10 people won't consider GM. How much worse can that statistic get before they can't stay in the black?
 
@Mosca



This is all I'm going to say on the subject. You don't know anything about my experience at dealerships so stay on a subject you know something about. My feelings towards American cars began 42 years ago when I bought my first car. Since then I have owned over 35 automobiles not counting fleet vehicles I purchased for my business. My "experience" comes from dealing first hand with the dealerships when my personal cars or company trucks have developed problems and with factory reps when the situation with either the car or the dealership was unsatisfactory. My experience with the Lexus people has been an absolute 180 degree change from any experience I ever had at an American car dealership. Too bad I didn't go to a dealership where you work; maybe I would have been treated better by you and I wouldn't feel the way I do.



Regards,
 
I apologize



...buncha stuff cut. Life's too short and precious to fight, or hold a grudge. I'm OK with it like this if you are.



Mosca
 
@Mosca,



You are a gentleman and your apology is accepted. I sometimes get worked up about the dealerships because I've had some experiences that would make anyone mad. I also didn't mean to lump all dealerships and their employees in with the the awful ones I've done business with. I did have a 67 Corvette that was a lot of fun though and I wish I still had it.



Regards,
 
Jeez, a lot of American car bashing. If many of you think they are junk, then they must have been down right awful a few years back! I wouldn't know, I've never owned an American car. I thougt they've made major strides in the past few years. The new cars like the Mustang coming out seem real nice.



Well, I've had two Saab 9000's 1986 & 1992. Probably two of the worst cars on the planet. Thousands and thousands of $$ in repairs (3 transmissions to name something). God bless the extended warranty option. I have every repair receipt dating back to 1986 and it fills a huge envelope. I've had repairs on those cars with parts replaced that I never knew existed or could fathom their function. I sold my 1986 to my Saab expert mechanic so he can use it for genuine parts.



Oh, jem7vwh, you indicate you don't hear people complain about VW's? My 2001 Jetta has gone through 3 burned out lights, a bum directional, 2 radios, a broken power mirror motor and a plastic thingy fell off the sunroof.
 
Hey Spilchy, thanks for adding to the conversation.



Actually though, I wasn't trying to say VWs don't have problems. Passat's a cool little cars but I've heard lots of complaints about the suspension system.



The difference though is, even when people have complaints about their VWs, I don't hear them say "I'll never buy one again".



Once again, the stat that sticks out is "3 out of 10 people refuse to even consider a GM vehicle."



Despite your experiences with Saab and VW, I don't think I can imagine any other car maker possessing such a bad reputation. That statistic implies that if GM made perfect cars from now on, and they priced them perfectly, and everyone thought they were great looking, only 70% of all people in the market would buy one tomorrow. But we all know that they won't. Because of the 70% who would think about a GM, some will choose Fords and Chryslers and Benz and BMW, and Honda, and Toyota. So, even if GM can get a third of those 7 people, you're only talking about approximately 20%. Those may not be the kind of numbers that can keep a gigantic company afloat.
 
Interesting discussion. I love a good general car discussion.



Reputations are funny because they can make or break a company. Unfortunately for the US car makers most of their current reputation is the result of some really crappy cars from the late seventies and much of the eighties. The arrogance and complete disregard for producing a quality car during those times was unbelievable. A good example is Cadillac. It was considered the pinnacle of automobiles for a while. The phrase “the Cadillac of _____� was used to describe anything from toasters to TV’s and implied the best. However even this phrase lost its meaning when the company was selling re-badged cavaliers and such. This is becoming difficult for the big three to get out from under and only time and the constant production of good quality cars is going to do that. Mistakes such as the constant recalls on the Focus and the ugliest car know to man, the Aztek have not helped.



The opposite may be said for VW. They produced some really durable cars in the eighties however, the quality control has really gone down hill. They have some great looking cars that are a joy to drive but the quality is horrible. My wife and I just traded in here 2001 Jetta VR6 GLS. The laundry list of problems included many sensors being replaced, replacement of the climate control fans in the dash, various dash pieces breaking, power mirror motor being replaced, 2 axels being replaced, the auto TRANSMISSION being replaced at 15k, the ECU being replaced and various micro switches failing. I will never buy another VW (except I would buy an Audi A4).



To get buyers back to considering US cars, the US manufacturers are going to have produce cars people want to buy and not rely on the “I buy GM� or the like mentality. The cars need to be targeted to the consumer. Take me for example, right now if I was going to buy a new car, I would not buy a GM (or Ford or Chrysler for that matter) car and it has nothing to do with a reputation or a perceived notion of lack of quality. GM just does not offer one vehicle that I feel meets my desires and of what I want to drive. I like a firm yet comfortable ride, with supportive firm seats and a car that is tuned more for sport driving than a highway couch on wheels. I do not like the softness of most US sedans or even their so called sport sedans or coupes. I like a sporting look but not overtly aggressive, and a neat tidy interior. Add in of course quality materials and good fit and finish. I can’t find this in most of cars produced by the US manufacturers. I like cars like BMW (although Bangle is ruining the styling), Audi, Honda, some of the Nissans, and for pure sports fun Porsche (oh of course Ferrari if I had the money (I don’t) – now you want to talk about some maintenance problems for an expensive car). I will admit that the new Cadillac CTS is starting to get there with the suspension and ride and I sort of like the look of the exterior, but the interior just doesn’t do it for me (add all the chrome and it is an also ran right now).



The other thing to consider is that the truck and SUV market is a much higher profit area and the US manufacturers have basically ruled in this market. I am not a truck or SUV guy so I may be off here but it appears that some foreign manufacturers are really starting to get the truck and SUV down, so the US manufacturers better no rest on their dominate market share.
 
Well- strangely enough, I had two really good experiences with US maker trucks this week. My father's Ford Expedition (which has been faultless throughout it's 50k lifetime) is really a great car with some truly comfortable seating. Then, I drove a friend's 1995 Chevrolet Silverado. It's always been babied, only driven by her. Despite that, I couldn't believe the lack of accelleration. My little 4 cylinder was faster. On the other hand, I was amazed at the turning radius. So, all in all, two decent experiences.



I'd pronounce the Ford a clear winner, however it's also much newer.



US makers did rule the truck market. Nowhere is that more clear than here in Texas. When I first moved here in 1985, all you even saw were Chevy's and Fords. However, nowadays I see more and more Toyota Tundras, and Tacomas. In the luxury market, I rarely see Escalades or Suburbans anymore. I see many more Lexus RX300, Honda Pilot, and even that BMW SUV.



You know what I'd like to see GM do? Get back to their strength. They've been fighting the tides of change for years. Their resistance to the Econobox cars made their transition rough and they lagged behind. Follow your strength, and start making the Caprice again. The Chevelle too. And it wouldn't hurt if they stopped making the Impala so ugly. They should reintroduce those 3 cars as new face of Chevy.



Caprice would be the big comfy sedan with bench seats and a strong smooth powertrain.



Chevelle would be a highway cruiser. Long and roomy, but with a high performance engine.



Impala would be the SS. The fast one. Not a Corvette though. I love Corvette's but Impalas were MEAN. The Impala should be imposing.



I think Dodge stole Chevrolet's image. Chevy ought to get it back, focus on what they're good at, and keep the quality up.
 
This is the first I've heard of this ad campaign. Kinda wierd way to lure back customers.....



I think some of the newer GM's are very nice and well built. I'd love a Grand Prix or an STS or better yet a CTS!! I know people that work for me that drive mid 90's cavaliers with 150,000 miles on 'em and nothing but routine maintainence.



The people that say American cars are junk believe that Asian cars are great and vise versa. Honda's blow head gaskets all the time. Nissans and Toyotas build about the most boring cars ever invented, and they have plenty of problems too.



Look at what Audi did after the false claims of there cars "accelerating". They almost pulled out of the American market but now they are regarded as a great brand.



I just bought a 92 Buick Le Sabre with 101,000 to drive back and forth to work (120 mile round trip). Why? Because those silly GM 3800 V6 engine routinely give 250,000 mile + and the car is a joy to drive (if you like driving a couch on the freeway!).



Anyway, all cars are good, all cars are bad. But what do I know? I drive and own a bunch of Alfa Romeo's!!!
 
I have owned several american cars and had many problems with one (Chevy Beretta) but none with the ford or pontiac.On the last new car purchase i bought german. Only because i could not find a american car with the things i was looking for in the new car being bought. I agree that the american big three make cars they think we want, but do not have a good idea unless its a SUV. The import car makers have made only cars and vans untill they felt they could not lose out on the money from the SUV market.
 
Our family used to own a 92 buick and yes it had a lot of problems with it, quailty,finishes,mechanical ect...But the dealership we went to provided great service and even gave us discounts on problems occuring after the warranty expired. Then being fed up with all the problems we gave it away and purchased a 1999 Mercedes SUV. And let me tell you that thing is the biggest piece of junk in the world. The car has about 120,000 miles on it I know thats quite abit but serioulsy it feels as if its going tho fall apart any minute. It rattles like a 30 year old car thats never been taken care of. And we baby this thing like crazy since its beeb new. The crazy thing is that we've spent over $20,000 fixing stuff that fails prematurely and other boatloads of problems. This doesn't even included normal wear and tear items. Panels are constanly falling off this car. Perhaps we just go a lemon. And all the dealers we've gone to suck!! Their techncians and service advisors are useless. This will probably be the last Mercedes we'll buy.
 
84GTV6 said:
The people that say American cars are junk believe that Asian cars are great and vise versa. Honda's blow head gaskets all the time. Nissans and Toyotas build about the most boring cars ever invented, and they have plenty of problems too.

Click to expand...



I think you make many good points in your post. But this section sticks out like a sore thumb. You're doing what you have accused others of doing. Boring? Every auto maker makes boring cars? Why? Because some people think driving is boring, and they want the cheapest, lowest maintenance, drive them into the ground cars. That's why the streets are full of old Civics, Corollas, Fireflies, K cars, etc. etc. Generalizing the Toyota and Honda make boring cars is just the same as saying that GM makes crap cars. That's lumping everything together. I think a few owners of NSX's and Supra TT's would disagree with you about boring.....
 
We sell Chevrolets and Subarus. The Subaru is a better car, but I don't like the Subarus, not even the WRX, although I admire and respect them (all the Subies, not just the WRX). I like (and bought) the Malibu, even though it's boring; I think all the Chevrolet cars are boring except the Corvette. But, the car fits me like an old shoe. The controls fall to hand. I can put the seat where I want it. It has a left-hand cup holder; I'm left-handed. It's powerful, rides nicely, and it's quiet, quieter as a 2-year old used car than the '03 Legacy I had as my last demo. And, I like the shape of the Malibu; I believe that, like the Corsica/Beretta and 1st generation 2-door Lumina, the basic outline of the car is underrated. The actual iteration of those products, particularly the Corsica, can be debated, but the shape itself is pleasing.



Lest you accuse me of not being concerned about reliability, performance and handling, my other car is a 1st gen Miata set up for street/autox.



For 99.9% of Americans, cars are 4-wheeled appliances. I've been selling and financing them since 1986. People buy the car they like, and you can't make sense to them once they've hit their head on the bumper. Why not? Because that guy, or this gal, doesn't want or look for the same things you (or I) want and look for.



Everything eventually finds its own level. It's like there's a mystical force driving things to equilibrium.



Mosca
 
2wheelsx2- That was my point. Sorry it didn't come across very clearly! What I was trying to say was basically different cars are designed for different people, some think Corvettes are boring, some think the K car was the best car they've ever owned. To each there own, that's what makes this world a great place to live. I can choose to buy 100's of different types of vehicles and no matter which I choose someone will disagree based on a stereotype or rumour.



Is an NSX/ Supra TT boring? Maybe, depends on who you ask! :nixweiss
 
Cool. Two different ways of saying the same thing, I guess. :)



BTW, I really like Alfas, but don't have the mechanical know-how to dare to own one. :)
 
I think that the points Mosca made are pretty interesting. What he says, I think, reflects the views of a lot of those who remain interested in GM cars. They KNOW Chevy isn't the best car on the planet. But they are also relatively sure that Chevy makes the most comfortable car for them and also, when the inevitable happens and their car breaks down, they'll be able to fix it.



I think instead of making an advertising campaign out of their failures, Chevy could talk about the comfort of a classic American car. Or the utility of owning a car that any 3rd rate mechanic can fix. The nice thing about owning a 1977 Camaro is that it has the same engine that Chevy put in everything else for 20 years. That sort of stability makes parts and labor cheap.
 
Yep....and also depends on where you live. I once was driving across Canada, and for some reason, both my headlights blew at once. I stopped in the nearest town, which had the big 3 dealers, but I was driving a Toyota. No one knew how to replace my headlight, and I had to replace them myself in their shop.



And even in a big city, there are plenty of Chevy mechanics, but a good import mechanic is not as abundant (still lots, but not as abundant), and the shop rates are higher.
 
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