Tie Browning

H

HRC

New member
Ok...first off there are so many aspects to this that I can't list them all...sooo....my e-mail address is bkman4@aol.com, feel free to e-mail me with exact questions.

I don't really know squat about Klasse, but I do know quite a bit about polymers. The curing time will matter on how well the Klasse will sheet/bead. If it takes 24 hrs. (just a guess) for it to cure, it won't be completely hard right away (the lower layer will still be a semi-liquid). Now that is most likely the case, as the harder it is, the less porous it would be, therefore it wouldn't want to hold as much water, and it would sheet faster. Now this all depends on how it cures....light...heat...air...catalyst...reactant or a combination of them. E-mail me with any questions you can't post...this will probably create more questions then answers, right away...but we WILL get to the bottom of this...

Happy Detailing
 
I really don't know "much" about polymers but, if its petrolium based, would that help to reduce the evaporation/hardening time that it takes to set-up? On the Klasse bottle it says no drying time is nesessary.
 
Ok, so then how long would it take for a polymer like Klasse to fully cure? What would happen if you applied another layer on top of it b4 it was fully cured?
 
1 to 7 days for cureing



The new layer would mix with the old layer making one new layer , so you would not be layering just mixing old with new.
 
many coating application are applied "inline" that is the second coat is put on before the previous coat is not completely cured. (not sure about what role that plays) just figured it would be something also to factor in
 
I have found that Z seems to take several days to really harden up.



There is a common belief that the time-to-cure relates, in part, to the thickness of application. But, I suspect that even a thin coat continues to cure past 24 hrs. Sal does say you can apply a second coat at the 24 hour mark -- but I suspect this advice assumes you have followed the directions and not applied too thick a coat. If you have applied too much Z, I suspect that this advice does not hold and you need more time (or, perhaps more time really means "more time, during which you have QDed with Z6 and removed the excess Z").



The practice of apply second coats "in line" particularly applies where a second coat would not properly adhere to a fully cured first coat. This is common with paints, where you often must sand before applying a second coat, if you let the first coat completely cure. I suspect that consideration does not exist with Z and K, as they appear to layer and adhere well on fully cured earlier coats.



I now wait a week or more between coats, to make sure my subsequent coats really are subsequent coats.
 
I used to layer the KSG immediately...but now I wait at least 4 - 7 days to layer the next coat...

and you know what, you guys are right, the shine is better than apply it immediately..



I'm also guessing that it will be more durable too by applying this way..but we'll see...
 
Remember...I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT KLASSE...I HAVE NEVER USED IT...although I plan to after reading what you guys have to say about it.



First of all...let me say...I am doing this to try to help...and although it might generate controversy, I brought this up because I am looking for the same answer as you are.



Now I am going to go down the posts...and try to answer everyone's ?'s. If I don't...U know my e-mail.



Petroleum doesn't necessarily have anything to do with drying or curing time...there are petroleum-based products that dry and/or cure slower than some polymer-based products, depending on the circumstances.



Now, with polymers as I know them...if you start one layer (layer used loosely, because polymers are essentially plastic and can be very thick) then apply another layer...the first layer will cure before the second one.

Now there are many aspects to this...((if there is a (strong) solvent used, it could dissolve part of the first layer and (melt) it into the second layer (which could actually be weaker then a simple physical bond)))...like how it is cured...if it is air...then the second layer will slow or stop the first one from curing. But if it is chemical or light there might not be a problem.



To all AUTOPIA users...I am talking/or trying to talk to KLASSE reps. to find out how it is cured, so we can work on this. And once I know how it is cured...I will try to find out the chemical and atomic properties so I can figure out the proper curing time.



In my experiences with curing polymers, the thicker it is, the longer it takes to cure...........but.......ha ha....like I said...there is more than one way that plastics can cure. So this is very complicated to say the least. So the more I say, the more ?'s I will generate...So before that happens, I would like to answer the ?'s that are out there...post to this thread, and thanks.....and.........



Happy Detailing
 
bkman4 -- I think you have brought up an important topic. We certainly need to know when we <em class='bbc'>can [/i]apply a new coat and when is the <em class='bbc'>optimum[/i] time to apply a new coat.
 
Excellent explaination!



I attempted a few month back to explain the same subject but failed due to some so intent on defending the product they used, felt I was knocking it.



That was not the case at all, just trying to shed a little light on the polymer issue.



For those who are following this thread,



1. As bkman stated, the petroluem distillate used should not affect the cure, but it must be a higher grade than say keosene.



2. Also, with the polymer resin systems used,(there are many grades, with various differences in performance for as used in this subject) Air is the primary catalist of the resin system.



3.Polymers are derived from crude oil or in earlier days, coal.



4. Polymers have also been developed that are entirely synthetic, but don't have much information on that technology.



5. As bkman also covered, thick application is not necessarily better, due to obtaining the crosslinking or cure of the material. The rule of thumb on this is that with a polymer sealant 2 to 4 oz per vehicle is plenty. To thick and the indicators which rise to the top, block the air from getting to the resin to catalize it.



6. One other thing, even though all these products contain some water in them, once the cure has started, they should not be exposed to a flushing of water. To do so, stops the crosslinking, and the product will never cure to the complete state.



This is a basic of most polymers.



I pass this on as I see many taking their QD, most being 90% water and spraying onto the just applied sealant to remove some residue.



Will that or will it not stop the crosslinking??



Hard to say, as the many variables come into play, such as the chemistry of the product, the humdity, temperature etc.



We have always instructed dealers personel to not wash a vehicle for 24 hours after application and for maximum crosslinking, to get the maximum protection the vehicle should not be exposed to water for up to 7 days.



Now, we know that is unreal, can't happen,but the laws of polymer science seem to show that this is the average time required for 100% cure.



Confuse anyone more??? Hope not, just little nuggets to mull over.



:eek:
 
How does this sound: Apply a coat of SG thin enough to be buffed out with a MF w/ out QD. Wait 24 hours, then apply another coat in the same manner. That should allow proper curing snouldn't it?
 
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >

<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by Ron Ketcham [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>What is this SG? Is it a wax, a liquid polymer sealant, a polish, don't know what it is or what it is made of.:confused: [/b]</blockquote>Klasse Sealant Glaze. I have no idea what it's made of, either, but it sure makes some forum members' cars awfully shiny . . .
 
Klasse SG is a liquid polymer sealant. It's description on CMA's site is: <em class='bbc'>Klasse High Gloss Sealant Glaze is a highly concentrated acrylic formula glaze for new cars and oxidation-free surfaces...creates an elastic, non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant -protective seal..."[/i]
 
Had no idea of what is was by the SG.



Forget the acrylic part, that is just old German wording from the 70's when nobody referred to polymer sealants as polymers. They felt that "acrylic" sounded more space age and people would relate it to plexiglas and the hard, clear look of it.



Yeah, needs to have cure time.



It is a polymer.



:bounce
 
Does Klasse cure and/or dry? Is Klasse a monomer or a polymer? These are questions that have been asked numerous times.



Bkman4 stated that polymers are essentially plastic; I agree 100% with this statement. Polymers are created through polymerization reactions with associated cure times. As I stated in a post about a month ago, I contacted a number of companies and discussed the monomer versus polymer issue. The general consensus was that Klasse was most likely a polymer dissolved in a solvent. They stated that once applied to the car, the solvent would evaporate leaving the polymer behind. They further stated that since a polymerization reaction is not occurring a cure time would not be involved.



I further thought about injection molding of plastics. The material that the injection molder uses has already been polymerized and is received in pellet form, whether it is PBS, SAN, PC, etc. Using a combination of pressure and temperature the plastic is melted and injected into the mold. The plastic cools in the mold, the mold opens and the plastic part is ejected. A cure time does not factor into this process since a polymerization reaction is not occurring. The plastic was simply changed from a solid to a liquid and back to the solid form.



Another indicative process is joining two plastic pieces together by utilizing a solvent. Two parts are positioned together, a solvent (not adhesive) is applied and once the solvent has evaporated (dried) the process is complete. The solvent liquefies the mating surfaces of the two parts. Once the solvent evaporates the plastic solidifies and you end up with two parts mated as one. This is very similar to the explanation I received regarding Klasse being a polymer dissolved in a solvent; in simplistic terms the polymer had been changed from a solid to a liquid.



As stated before this is hypothetical since I really have no idea what Klasse is composed of. Perhaps there is a polymerization reaction occurring with a resultant cure time. Maybe someday we will all have the answers. Until then we can only experiment until we get the results we are individually happy with. For some this might mean waiting a week before applying that second coat of SG whereas others may apply immediately. Perhaps someone will discover that alternating Z2 and SG gives the best result (I have not tried this btw, but has anyone else?).
 
The question that was just asked about SG being a mononmer or polymoer is tough...I want to do some more research to answer that in detail, but I would think SG is a polymer, but even if not Monomers still undergo polymerization and there for need time to cure (same as polymers). Now I might be mistaken but I think all polymers are monomers. As monomers are defined as any material or substance that can undergo polymerization. This is confusing and I'm not sure on how correct it is...but I can assure you I'm doing more research as we speak.

WHAT IS SG?
I have been waiting for this question to come up...and let me tell you, it is not as simple as it seams. And to top it all off, it seems like the folks at Klasse are as confused as we are...this is what is says on this site: All-In-One is not a wax, silicone or <strong class='bbc'>polymer[/b] but an acrylic formula. It really is different.

Now here is the definition of polomers: Any of numerous natural and synthetic compounds of usually high molecular weight consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units, each a relatively light and simple molecule.

Here is the definition of plastic: Any of various organic compounds produced by polymerization, capable of being molded, extruded, cast into various shapes and films, or drawn into filaments used as textile fibers.

Acrylic itself is not usefully defined, but acrylic resin is...so: A glassy thermoplastic made by polymerizing acrylic or methacrylic acid or a derivative of either and used for cast and molded parts or as coating and adhesives.

Well, confused yet? I am...But if we break it down it is not that hard to figure out. It seems that Klasse is an acrylic formula, I'll agree with their description on that. However if u look at the def. of polymers, you'll see that all acrylics are polyomers. So Klasse is wrong when they say it isn't a polymer. Now obviously acrylics are also plastic. What does this tell us? I don't really know if it tells us anything we don't already know...Klasse is an acrylic (probably considered a sealant)...and all acrylics are polymers...and all polymers are plastic. So...Klasse is essentially all three, but is this useful? I don't know...I hope the guys at Klasse can update their description...Because if they don't understand, How can we?!?

See ya and Happy Detailing

P.S. Detailking, what do u think of all this?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top