Teflon Sealants

RAG

New member
In case anyone hasn't noticed, the car dealerships are really getting people brainwashed regarding this teflon gimmic thing their always pushing. Just to knowlegeable on the matter, I was hoping to ge some more information.



What, specifically are these magic coatings called? I hear Tef Tech alot. And PermPlate (I'm not sure this one is "teflon.")





I'm surprised one of the connisour-grade products we use haven't added a drop of teflon to their product and labled it "Teflon"; I kinda wish they would, as people sometimes call and ask me if I can apply a Teflon coating to their paint - when I say "no, not exactly..." they sometimes go elsewhere and get ripped off ($250) to have a sealant applied.
 
If Teflon is not applied at 600 degrees (or whatever the exact temperature is), it is not a viable ingredient.



Personally, I refuse to use product lines that perpetuate the teflon myth.
 
Scottwax said:
If Teflon is not applied at 600 degrees (or whatever the exact temperature is), it is not a viable ingredient.



Personally, I refuse to use product lines that perpetuate the teflon myth.



Defintiely true. I don't buy those lines either, such a rip off.



Though it does make you wonder what would happen if teflon was "baked" onto the body panels off of the car? :idea
 
I have a friend who got into pro detailing. Recently saw him and he was showing me all the teflon junk that he bought. Ugh.
 
Scottwax said:
If Teflon is not applied at 600 degrees (or whatever the exact temperature is), it is not a viable ingredient.



Personally, I refuse to use product lines that perpetuate the teflon myth.

I agree with Scott. It's better to take a moment to educate the consumer about the differences between what they think they're getting and what they're actually getting with a Teflon product.
 
RAG said:
people sometimes call and ask me if I can apply a Teflon coating to their paint - when I say "no, not exactly..." they sometimes go elsewhere and get ripped off ($250) to have a sealant applied.

One thought could be to carry 1 "Teflon" product, so that when they ask you can say "Yes, but I have found a product that *lasts longer, shines better, beads water better, is so slick reflections slip off, whatever* that I prefer to use. However, if you are set on a Teflon coating, I can accommodate you." This way you've got the customer still considering your business while at the same time you can be trying to steer them to another product/educate them.



After all, if the customer feels happier with hype, it doesn't matter if it doesn't protect/shine/bead as long. They got what they "wanted" and you got their business. Once you've got their business and their confidence, you'll have a better chance of getting them to use something else next time.



Of course, if you can afford to turn away business, then go ahead and stick by your principles. If you can't afford to, look for options that can be a win/win for both.



Just an alternative viewpoint. (I'm not a pro.) :buffing:
 
Well I have to say that I like the PPS http://www.ppstechnology.com/ I did two cars this week with it.



1. Menzerna PO85RD with rotary and blue SM Arnold pad @ 1200rpm

2. Wash with Step 1

3. Rinse and dry the car with water magnet

4. Applied Step 2 with cyclo and blue Lake country pads.

5. Wipe off with mf-towel.



The paint is so slick and I got good experience with the durability, bending water for 6+ months. I paid about $50 and I can do 3 cars with one load.



Thats my opinion. I know almost everyone here at autopia don´t like this product. But it´s the slickest sealants I ever tried. So easy to wipe off, FMJ is tought to wipe off compared to it.



Go a head and throw some garbage at me :hide:
 
Scottwax said:
If Teflon is not applied at 600 degrees (or whatever the exact temperature is), it is not a viable ingredient.



Scott, I read the patent (some time ago) on the DuPont teflon car wax (which I don't think is the one that they sell now that's made by Tenneco), and it sounded pretty convincing. Industrially, there are teflon coatings applied to aluminum parts (see here ), which is infused into the porous hard anodized surface of aluminum, and I doubt that they are heated to 600* F, as that would be way above the stress-relief (and therefore distortion) temperature for aircraft aluminums. I found another place (that I'm familiar with) that seems to have two room temp cures, and one at 375*F.



I'm not saying those teflon products are good, and I haven't used any, I'm just saying it's possible that they could make their way into what has been described as the porous matrix of auto paint, in the same way that impregnation works, and have some value.
 
They have made there way into detailing on a marketing point [SYSTEM 5] and a good cash cow for the dealership I also sell a sealant [not teflon] with 2/application for $350.00 for the year.
 
Do a google on "Teflon health risks" and see if you still want to use it.



You are aware that the EPA just levied the largest fine in it's history ($16.5M) against DuPont for hiding adverse Teflon related health facts for over 20 years, right?



The EPA is in the midst of a large accelerated study of these chemicals right now and the EPA's Science Advisory Board stated that it is a "likely human carcinogen."
 
some products that contain teflon seem to use it for additional lubrication (or glide) during application. EO W&S is one. The new version might not have it tho.
 
jfelbab said:
Do a google on "Teflon health risks" and see if you still want to use it.



You are aware that the EPA just levied the largest fine in it's history ($16.5M) against DuPont for hiding adverse Teflon related health facts for over 20 years, right?



The EPA is in the midst of a large accelerated study of these chemicals right now and the EPA's Science Advisory Board stated that it is a "likely human carcinogen."



Before you have everybody throwing out their frying pans, the chemical in question is perfluorooctanoic acid, used in the manufacture of teflon and similar to the (now banned) ingredient in Scotchguard. I don't think there is any real evidence that this compound is in the finished product. (I'm not positive on this, but if there was, there wouldn't be any teflon coated cookware for sale any longer, just like you can't get original Scotchguard). My analogy would be that it's like saying that you should wear gloves when you use paste carnauba wax because it's got solvents in it, and then saying it's unsafe to touch your waxed car...which of course doesn't have the solvents any longer.



Plenty of unsafe chemicals are used to make safe products (even food) that we use every day.
 
BigLeegr said:
One thought could be to carry 1 "Teflon" product, so that when they ask you can say "Yes, but I have found a product that *lasts longer, shines better, beads water better, is so slick reflections slip off, whatever* that I prefer to use. However, if you are set on a Teflon coating, I can accommodate you." This way you've got the customer still considering your business while at the same time you can be trying to steer them to another product/educate them.



After all, if the customer feels happier with hype, it doesn't matter if it doesn't protect/shine/bead as long. They got what they "wanted" and you got their business. Once you've got their business and their confidence, you'll have a better chance of getting them to use something else next time.



Of course, if you can afford to turn away business, then go ahead and stick by your principles. If you can't afford to, look for options that can be a win/win for both.



Just an alternative viewpoint. (I'm not a pro.) :buffing:

This raises sort of an ethical dilemma though. Would he feel comfortable carrying and selling a product that he didn't believe in? Since the whole Teflon car care thing is pretty much a snake oil sale, it kind of makes him just as bad as the people who already sell it.
 
I remember when the Dupont website had a dissertation about the unethical vendors touting Teflon content of auto waxes; and they further explained that to properly apply Teflon, that the 600+ heat is required. Of course, now that _Dupont_ is selling carwaxes and various other cleaners with Teflon in it, I can't find this disclaimer on the website anymore. While I'm not a chemist, I wonder what changed in the formulation/application?
 
If you guys would look in this thread you will see a link to two Dupont patents for teflon car wax products. It's unclear if anything like this is being sold, and I didn't reread the patents just now, but IIRC they have a method which sounded feasible and required no high temperature curing.
 
Mike,

Thanks for the link to the patent(s). It appears that one is applied via rotary at 1500+ rpms to achieve sufficient heat for bonding, and the other requires a rather involved acid-type cleansing of the surface to achieve adhesion. I'm not sure how either of these relates to the OTC products sold under Dupont's name, however, as I've assumed they were wipe on / off products.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
Before you have everybody throwing out their frying pans, the chemical in question is perfluorooctanoic acid, used in the manufacture of teflon and similar to the (now banned) ingredient in Scotchguard. I don't think there is any real evidence that this compound is in the finished product. (I'm not positive on this, but if there was, there wouldn't be any teflon coated cookware for sale any longer, just like you can't get original Scotchguard). My analogy would be that it's like saying that you should wear gloves when you use paste carnauba wax because it's got solvents in it, and then saying it's unsafe to touch your waxed car...which of course doesn't have the solvents any longer.



Plenty of unsafe chemicals are used to make safe products (even food) that we use every day.



And plenty of unsafe chemicals are used to make unsafe products that we use everyday.



According to DuPont's own studies and other peer reviewed studies, Teflon offgases toxic particulates at 446°F. At 680°F Teflon pans release at least six toxic gases, including two carcinogens, two global pollutants, and MFA, a chemical lethal to humans at low doses. At temperatures that DuPont scientists claim are reached on stovetop drip pans (1000°F), non-stick coatings break down to a chemical warfare agent known as PFIB, and a chemical analog of the WWII nerve gas phosgene. Studies have shown that PFOA is in fact released as Teflon degrades. See these studies for details.

Ellis, DA., Mabury, SA., Martin, JW and Muir, DC. 2001. Thermolysis of fluoropolymers as a potential source of halogenated organic acids in the environment. Nature 412(6844): 321-4.



Machino, M. 2000. Atmospheric chemistry of CF3CF=CF2: kinetics andmechanism of its reaction with OH radicals, chlorine atoms, and ozone. J. Phys. Chem. A 104: 7255-7260 (As cited in: Ellis, DA., Mabury, SA., Martin, JW and Muir, DC. 2001. Thermolysis of fluoropolymers as a potential source of halogenated organic acids in the environment. Nature 412(6844): 321-4).



I stopped using Teflon coated pans a couple years ago when I found that just cooking with them on the range causes them to emit a vapor that kills pet birds. Like the early miners who took birds into the mines to know if the air was safe to breathe, I found that if a bird couldn't live in my kitchen I didn't want to use those pans any longer as it would not likely do me and my family any good either.



Studies have found perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), a chemical used to make Teflon, in human blood, in a lot of human blood, including the blood of infants. PFOA is not just found in peoples blood near the Teflon manufacturing sites in the US. It's found in our blood all over the US. The EPA says this substance (PFOA) should be considered extremely toxic and a likely carcinogen. 96% of Americans have PFOA's in their blood. PFOA is not a naturally occurring compound, it is made by only one company today, DuPont. Draw any conclusions you want as to the source of PFOA's entry to your and your families blood but it is cumulative once there.



The EPA is now learning some scary facts about PFOA. The chemical accumulates in the blood over time, and studies have linked it to increased risks for leukemia and high cholesterol. PFOA could very well join the list of asbestos, PCB, mercury and silica hazards. And like these other substances, as the dangers began to emerge the manufacturers tried to claim they were perfectly safe. There were those in the mid 70's who were defending asbestos and tried to dismiss the studies. You can ignore the PFOA data emerging today, thats fine, you are only taking risks with your and your families lives so follow your own conscience.



I feel I face enough hazards in my everyday life and don't need DuPont adding to the risk and withholding information about it. I find I can live quite well without Teflon and PFOA's. I sure as hell don't need it in a car wax, especially since there are other safer products available that work better.
 
Well, I certainly don't want to argue this point, but it was my understanding that the large-scale dissemination of PFOA was from Scotchguard, which is what led to 3M ceasing production of it (at least that formula).
 
I've never tried any product with it but I think it would work, just not the way it's marketed most of the time. Teflon won't bond to the paint itself, because that would require very high temperatures which is how they put it on saucepans. So it's most likely held in place with something else like a wax or polymer that bonds to it and the paint. That means durability wouldn't be much better than any other product.
 
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