System one....is it...

K...You are probably correct and I will take your advice......I just think false, self-importance is outrageous no matter what the profession.



We should all do our very best no matter what our job. I commend Todd for what appears to be good work. I just think its important to understand that some people have daily drivers that they like to keep up. Those people need products that they can use to get the job done and not necessarily the perfection that a Paul Dalton delivers. There are also people that have show cars. System One is designed for a purpose (as is Vintage, Menzerna etc.)



I also believe its important to point out that we should respect people who restore cars, and respect people that actually understand paint etc. They do have a little bit of knowledge that we can ALL learn from.



Sorry for going overboard.:sadwavey:
 
jfsully said:
Thanks for you reply ...and especially, Toto, thanks for yours. I think this help clear up System One..the polish you discuss is just right for it's designed purpose. Toto, from what I am hearing you say, Tom also may be making a new product for the "perfectionist".



Not to try to be a jerk, and I know it will come across that way but some clarification is needed.



I know Cavallino well (I live where its held.) Just to clarify ...you state [I]"However I do high end detailing dealing primarily with Ferrari's and won several platimums, silvers, and trophies at Cavallino" [/I]



I believe the owners of the cars won those events, the restorers brought the cars to the level of perfection and you made sure they weren't dirty, swirly and they shined real nice? (not to minimize that effort because there are many great detailers out there.) The overall contribution you made to any of the cars winning is negligible at best whereas the restoration etc is of paramount importance.



The scoring of the Cavallino says "Therefore, the primary focus of the judging will be on originality, authenticity and condition, with minor emphasis on cosmetics. Deductions will be made for over-restoration; extravagance detracts from originality. Applied patina is discouraged. Spyder conversions and unauthorized rebodies are ineligible for judging. Over-cleanliness is unnecessary; some slight road dust and wear is to be expected. Ferraris are meant to be driven.



Also clarify ""Re: The Road to Cavallino: Ferrari Boxer concours prep, days 1-3 (99 pics)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ir13 View Post

I think this whas there class



Class 8: 365 BB/512 BB – Sponsored by Miller Motorcars



Platinum 1983 512 BBi 43799 Richard Baumgart Singer Island, FL



Platinum 1984 512 BBi 51723 Don Bartz Stuart, FL



Gold 1974 365 GT4/BB 17543 Gene Berns Chicago, IL



Silver 1984 512 BBi 49473 David Eichenbaum St. Petersburg, FL

Correct.



The car in this thread is the one that one silver. It was marked down for incorrect nuts on the battery (no I'm not kidding). I personally think one of the judges was gunning for this car because this car had shown his up pretty bad at a previous show. Even the winners commented that this car was the best looking one there.



I also detailed the Gold winner."



Which platinum winners did you detail? http://www.cavallino.com/images/2008-concorso.pdf
Click to expand...



So your point was to judge my knowledge of paint and the validity of my opinion based on how many cars I have restored? Even though I am not a car restorer? Great job. As far the platinum's, even you remember an old thread where I detailed some pretty expensive cars you might have seen two of those cars winning platinums, unforuntately I have been asked not to say more and will respect this clients wishes. If you search F-chat threads you might find your answers as well.



Also, you ignored every point I made.



You also speak out again personal attacks that I never made while purposefuly trying to get under my skin.
 
jfsully said:
K...You are probably correct and I will take your advice......I just think false, self-importance is outrageous no matter what the profession.



We should all do our very best no matter what our job. I commend Todd for what appears to be good work. I just think its important to understand that some people have daily drivers that they like to keep up. Those people need products that they can use to get the job done and not necessarily the perfection that a Paul Dalton delivers. There are also people that have show cars. System One is designed for a purpose (as is Vintage, Menzerna etc.)



I also believe its important to point out that we should respect people who restore cars, and respect people that actually understand paint etc. They do have a little bit of knowledge that we can ALL learn from.



Sorry for going overboard.:sadwavey:
Click to expand...



Actually my work sucks but I take good pictures so it all works out. I'm not saying I'm right, but can you please provide me with an example of a personal attack on Tom Horvath other then questioning him. Unless respect means asking easy questions, I still fail to see (although I would like to) where I did this.



I stand by my original statements about System One and most people who have used it compared to high end products seem to agree. If this upsets you to the point where you feel the need to call me out, fine, but it has nothing to do with self-importance.
 
Todd ...I attempted to stop this at my last post...I must have done a bad job at it.



on the corvette forum you said System One - Advanced Polishing System - Corvette Forum



"Terrible product. I recieved (sp) a sample from autogeek and throw it in the garbage.

It will do what it says kind of (behind the false claims and trick wording). I have never gotten it to finish 100 percent perfect, and it usually requires several passes to remove all of the defects."



Saying someone has "false claims and trick wording" is questioning that persons integrity (IMO)



I think you are a very good detailer and take pride in your work....I believe I was off base and made some personal character attacks...for that I apologize.



enough said about this subject?
 
John - How's the finish holding up? When you're ready for another detail, I'd love to use System 1 on it. When I met Tom @ Detail Fest, I thought he was a great guy & I could have talked to him for hours. Funny thing was, we really didn't talk all that much about his product, more about paint and the refinishing process in general. He's a wealth of knowledge for sure.
 
jfsully said:
Todd ...I attempted to stop this at my last post...I must have done a bad job at it.



on the corvette forum you said System One - Advanced Polishing System - Corvette Forum



"Terrible product. I recieved (sp) a sample from autogeek and throw it in the garbage.

It will do what it says kind of (behind the false claims and trick wording). I have never gotten it to finish 100 percent perfect, and it usually requires several passes to remove all of the defects."



Saying someone has "false claims and trick wording" is questioning that persons integrity (IMO)



I think you are a very good detailer and take pride in your work....I believe I was off base and made some personal character attacks...for that I apologize.



enough said about this subject?
Click to expand...



Fair enough and I accept your apology. Actually you are correct and I did type about 5 minutes after I threw the product in the trash (I picked it back up).



However, I will defend the false claims and trick wording comment.



Tom claims that System One is safer because it removes less paint while removing the defects. If you think about a cross section of the paint, you have scratches or swirls that penetrate into the surface. To make the paint "perfect" you have to remove all the paint above the bottom most part of the scratch.



It doesn't matter which product you use, the same amount of paint has to come off the paint (all the paint above the depth of the scratches). If I use another product and remove preciesly the correct depth of paint, how can his product be safer? We both removed the same amount of paint, it is impossible to remove the defects with out removing the paint above them, yet System One claims to remove "less paint". I asked Tom about this on autogeek and IIRC he did't respond.



So let's take this a step further, lets say the defects are deeper then what System One will remove on with a finishing pad (or in my case Menzerna PO85rd or 3M UF-SE and a finishing pad) will remove. In my case, I would bump up the polish slightly or the pad slightly. With System One, your next step up in aggressiveness is a pretty huge step (from a finishing pad to an full twisted wool cutting pad). In this case, I have just enough cut to get the job done and remove just the right amount of paint, where as with System One, you have over kill and are removing more paint then necessary. So in this case (quite common because a lot of times you can remove wash induced marring with a moderate polish and pad such as Menzerna IP or Meg's 83 and a polishing pad) and do not need the aggressiveness to a product combination that claims to remove 1200 grit scratches! That is crazy.



So in this common case, The System One system is removing far to much paint and thus is far from safer. I believe his claim is false and I would have loved to discuss this with him in depth and get his take.



Taking one step even further, with a traditional abrasive, you have a built in buffer. As the polish breaks down, it looses cut, until the point where only the pad is providing any abrasion on the paint. With System One and the non diminishing abrasive techonlogy, the abrasives stay the same and continue to cut and cut and cut. They dont' break down in the traditonal sense, so the longer you buff the more "cut" you get. This means it has the potentinal to remove a very high level of paint, where as with a traditonal finishing polish, you can work it for several minutes (after the abrasives are gone and the product is no longer cutting) in ensure a perfectly level and hologram free finish (as well as a potentialy micro scopic "perfect") finish that will reflect maximum light.



While the comment you brought up was worded out of my frustration (and I can see how you could make assumptions based on that and cannot fault you for doing so), the majority of my posts on the manner have been asking questions I have and expressing the reservations I have.
 
danponjican said:
I beg to differ. I'll put my S1 finish up against any polish/pad combo out there.
Click to expand...

HA!!!



Try a soft honda clear. System one even with the white finishing side of the pad often holograms like crazy as the polish is not fine enough. I've worked on some custom paintjobs that are considerably softer than the Honda paint. Ultrafina or Menzerna 85RD will make short work of it and finish perfect.



Try bmw ceramic clear coat. System one with the wool pad even cranked up to 2000rpm cannot remove RIDS and heavy swirls as its not strong enough. Meguiars M105 with a black wool pad will remove the RIDS and heavy swirling in a single pass. System One would require a dozen or more passes to do it if at all.



Paint hardness varies from insanely hard to extremely soft. There is no way you can cover both extremes with a single polish. You could however cover the majority of paint types but not all.
 
TTWAGN said:
HA!!!

Try bmw ceramic clear coat. System one with the wool pad even cranked up to 2000rpm cannot remove RIDS and heavy swirls as its not strong enough. Meguiars M105 with a black wool pad will remove the RIDS and heavy swirling in a single pass. System One would require a dozen or more passes to do it if at all.



Paint hardness varies from insanely hard to extremely soft. There is no way you can cover both extremes with a single polish. You could however cover the majority of paint types but not all.
Click to expand...





Beg to differ sir. BMW hard clear coats respond well to the System One. Here's an example:



Starting shot



550iBlackRearBumperStart.jpg




Here's In-Process with just wool.



550iBlackBumperInProcessX3Wool.jpg




The 2 key procedures I always use (wether it's Sys One or 3M) is: keep my rpm between 1,000 and 1,200 rpm AND use a clean wool pad for every panel. I use a pad washer/dryer and keep pads in rotation.



Finished with sunshine shots



550iOutsideDeckLidFinished.jpg




Toto
 
Todd:



I know a lot of us dont use Meguiars (we are mostly snobbish on the detailing sites)



That being said, I know Meguiars has a huge R&D budget and their NEW technology uses Non diminishing abrasives similar to SO). Meguiars has come out with Meguiars Solo. It seems that Meguiars believes this technology is superior. Have you used any of the Meguiars Super micro abrasive products and what is your opinion?



meguiars.com: Solo One Step Professional Liquid System



"Meguiar's Diminishing Abrasive(s) - Abrasive(s) that actually break down as you use them. For example, they may start out a certain size or shape, and during the buffing cycle, they will actually breakdown to nothing, so there are only polishing oils working for you. We pioneered and have been utilizing this technology for about 75 years in many of our compounds, cleaners, cleaner/polishes, and cleaner/waxes.



Meguiar's Super Micro Abrasive(s) - With technology comes advancements. We simply developed a new style / mix of abrasive(s) we refer to as “Super Micro Abrasive Technology�. We can say, this new "style" of abrasives are very small and do not "breakdown" like OUR diminishing abrasive technology does. This new abrasive technology is exclusive to Meguiar’s and is not available to any other company."
 
I use Meguiars and find their products very nice. Their Super Micro Abrasives still break down (a diamond breaks down) just at a much slower rate then a traditional polish.



I use M105 (infact I was one of this first on this board, IIRC) quite often which also features the same abrasive, but I have limited expericene with M86 (So1o) polish. When we talk about automotive refinishing, their is a huge spectrum of people doing different quality work. I think for "autopian" style work (which I view as doing the best possible job) you can generally get better finishes with a diminshing abrasive polish.



The last time I spoke to Mike Phillips on the phone he told be (I believe) that Meguiars actually used System One as a bench mark when they developed the So1o line.



I think M105 (which can be very finicky) is one of the nicest finishing compounds on the market, so my opinion of this technology that it seems to have a huge ability remove defects but doesn't quite finish as nice a dedicated finishing polish.
 
I am not a pro detailer, my cars are my hobby and I work on them for fun. I have learned a lot on this site and appreciate the time people spend posting. I'm not out to flame anyone but since Detail Fest I've used System One on all of my cars with excellent results. For me it has replaced Mezerna IP and FP2. When you read posts on System One you invariably read about Todd's dissatisfaction with Tom, his marketing and his product. I would hate for people to be turned off to System One simply by his comments. Todd is completely entitled to his opinion but he is driven like a moth to a flame whenever System One or Tom comes up. Like anything in life I'd recommend just giving it a try if you are so inclined. It is definitely not a product I would steer people away from.





Can a polish or detailer do better than this on 19 year old paint...... sure. Not sure if it would be noticeable to most of us out there though.



img8773sn3.jpg
 
Todd I just don't get you bro... it's like you have a "short-sale" on shares of S1. You're a good guy... you do great work but I just don't understand the eagerness to flame a product that several other reputable detailers all endorse as a great product.
 
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