Swissvax Crystal Rock

Great....I guess I wasted my hard-earned money but addiction is a terrible thing...In case if anyone is wondering, the small j8 oz. jar is Vintage personally made by Chuck Bennett for me, the founder of Zymol...

Sean,,,,,,

Sean, I don't want to suggest you wasted your money at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Apply it, remove it, and judge it on your own. You might find you love it and think that I am completely wrong, and that is cool as well!!!

If we all believed and saw the same things this world would be borning. Your opinion is as valuable and as accurate as anybody elses on this forum!
 
My Dad was a great man, lived through the Depression of the 30's, was a Marine at 32 years old and fought in WWII, finally retired for good when he was in his mid eighties. He was also frugal an a real hoot to take to the mall. One time we walked in a store and he saw a Ralph Lauren shirt for $65 and he said - let's go, I'm seen enough! I got to say, the older I get, the more I feel like he did. I weigh the value, and the bang for the buck a product has. Like Todd and the jeans example, I'll look for comfort, price and duribility over designer lable.

My advice to anyone starting detailing - buy from PAC, good products, great value.
 
^ I think by blood sugar was low... That is what happens.

I have used and briefly owned Vintage (pronounced VEEN TAAA GGEEE) with a French accent for proper effect (in English it is vintage like an old pair of socks) and think it is a very very nice wax. I have personaly that it is more difficult to apply then some other waxes and tends to streak in the humdity (often requiring a rebuff) and has typical durablity.

But it isn't the glass case, the story, the name nor the price that makes it a great wax, it is a nice combination of wax, oil, and solvent. Some may prefer the look of Vintage to the look of Midnight Sun (or any price wax vs. any other priced wax) but it to assume that it is because of the quality of ingredient would be, imo, wrong.
maybe...but it was still sooooooo funny!!!
 
For that price I would expect Paul Dalton himself to show up at my door and apply it.

Would that include a snazzy, H-D musical video of the process? The 63-step wash? Maybe some dancing girls to keep you entertained while he works?

You've gotta hand it to the guy, he's created a niche and getting flown all over the world to spiff the exotics of those that equate price with results. Can't blame him for cashing in if he can.

Me? I'll take a $12 bottle of 845 any day.

TL
 
Say what you want about Mr. Paul Dalton but he's done a lot for the perception of premium detailing/detailers all over the world.

Some people hate on him for the fancy waxes or processes etc but the guy has a very good business and many seem to forget he is actually very good at what he does.

His paint correction (from what I see in pictures) is top notch and I believe he's working on his own line of products as well, separate from his Crystal Rock wax... I would bet if he made correction polishes they would be excellent.

No im not on the guys nuts I just give him credit... dont tell me if you had the choice you wouldnt want to be in his position. :o
 
True. Many folks have open their minds to the idea of a high-end detailer thanks to the famous 5th Gear video. He's also proved how much marketing can help to push a business to the next level
 
While I am hesitant to say that is all marketing and hype (obviously the wax itself is very good, although I don't know any that are very bad) I would say that some of claims made in the marketing do not add up in my novice head.

I am a firm believer in prep work and I believe that the closer the paint is brought to theoretical perfection the less overall impact the wax (or sealant) will have on the overall look of the paint. This is because (like water running over scratched paint) waxes and sealants tend to fill in microscopic marring in the paint, creating a smoother, more reflective top surface. If the paint has been made smooth by precise mechanical abrasion then this benefit is not needed.

On a black, swirled out hood, I would put Meguiar's NXT 2.0 against a lot of these super priced waxes. Why? Because NXT 2.0 will fill nicely and great a noticeably smoother looking paint devoid of swirls and scratches. In direct light the NXT side will appear more even, darker, and swirl free. Obviously in low light and at angles their might be a discernible difference in the 'depth' of the reflection, but even the difference is going to be small.

The problem I have with super waxes isn't the performance or even the value (as mentioned these are completely in the eye of the beholder) but the hyperbole and dubious marketing that is often associated with selling these products.

Special carnaubas? No such thing. All carnauba wax used in the automotive field is #1 yellow, which is the highest. By micro refining or bleaching it can be made white (Midnight Sun uses micro-refined carnauba flake which we call Ivory, and the performance benefit is that it is easy to get a consistent blend each and every time it is hand poured). There is no such thing as a natural white wax, it doesn't exist.

The amount of carnauba wax, at least quoted, is in many cases misleading. By true volume about 30-35% is max, although application at this level becomes difficult. Even then the amount of carnauba is such a small indicator of performance (often the other ingredients used such as solvents, oils, or secondary waxes are far more important then amount of carnauba) that it really shouldn't be quoted.

I have used a couple of the boutique waxes and thought that most where very nice, although none came close to blowing my socks off the way that properly finished paint does. As mentioned I did a very small (and very unscientific) test with PS21 100%, Zymol Vintage, and Zymol Royale on the hood of an owners Ferrari 348. I couldn't tell much difference between the 3, but Royale was terrible to use. For the price increase $50 vs $2000 vs $8000 there should have been a significant increase in looks (IMO) and not one that requires a specially trained eye to see. In then end most people at the party (including the owner of Royale) thought that P21s looked better. It doesn't prove anything other then on that particular day, with those particulate 'judges', the $7500 difference in quality was not detectable.

The specialty trained eye... When I have read that somebody used an expensive wax and couldn't tell the difference the common retort is that they don't have a trained eye for it. Perhaps, like enjoying fine an expensive wines, you have to develop a taste for it to appreciate it. But given the thickness of the coating of wax (sub micron) any difference is guaranteed to be very small.

This is my personal opinion that follows so let me take off the PAC shirt.

Human perception is a funny thing and impossible to define. Why? Because perception, as they say, is reality. If we want to go really far off the deep end then we can conclude that 'one universal' reality simply doesn't exist. Our realities are formed by the inputs our specialty organs detect, and are transfered through electrical impulses into membranes that chemically transfer the energy into the readable input. This happens almost instantly and there is a lot of room for error. Previous stimuli can change the way we see this new input, like viewing through a colored lens. It is a game of Chinese Telephone.

What is attractive to some isn't attractive to others, and this is reality. This is why some people like sealants, and some like waxes... It isn't about right and wrong it is about individual interpretation and the resulting individual realities.

This is why eye witness accounts are refutable in court, why you see things that aren't there at night, and why the piece of art you finding stunning and beautiful is ugly and disturbing to your friend.

One powerful input in society is cost and the perception of value. Keep in mind that many people feel by spending more they are receiving a better quality product. Because this perception is reality, they are receiving a better product, regardless of provable differences in performance and quality.

Car waxes are pretty simple regardless of how much you pay for them. They all have some type of solvent, similar quality carnauba wax, and auxiliary oils, emsufliers, etc. Most car waxes utilize several types of raw wax blended together. This isn't a price thing, as carnauba is very cheap, and the blending of the wax together adds cost, but a performance thing. Despite the romantic marketing of carnauba, it has many short comings. Blending carnauba with small amounts of different wax usually results in the synergistic effect that improves the performance and look of the wax. It isn't done to save money (it doesn't') it is done to increase performance. Some boutique waxes, such as Midnight Sun have a small amount of synthetic polymers in the wax. Again this doesn't save money but adds to the cost of production. But it is done because there is increases the performance of the wax over using just regular old carnauba.

So the actual product and quality difference between boutique waxes (which use the highest quality products) is, on paper, very small. There is only so much that can be done.

This doesn't mean that these super duper expensive waxes don't look better to some peoples eyes (perhaps based on price point alone) and that the visual difference isn't very real (it is, perception creates reality). Using a wax (instead of a sealant) is a romantic notion to begin with, and the reality of using an expensive wax is very appealing. It is no different then wearing Lucky Jeans instead of Express instead of Target brand. Heck, in my experience, the Lucky Jeans didn't last very long, the Express jeans bled color, and my cheap Target jeans (used for detailing/house hold projects) are still going strong. But I feel better wearing more expensive jeans. Doesn't make sense, but it is my reality.

Another point to consider is that many people lump wax performance together with price point.

0-20 dollars; 21-60 dollars, 60-90 dollars, 91-150 dollars, 151-300 dollars, 300 on up...

Obviously the brackets are different and everybody has a different category, but you can see it on most forums. Again the actual cost of the product is probably quite similar in 60 dollar and up range because at this price point the highest quality ingredients are easily obtainable.

But we see often, that most people will perceive at 100 dollar wax > 50 dollar wax. And a 200 wax > 100 wax and a 500 dollar wax > 200 dollar wax, and so on and so on. As price goes up we are going up this imagery rung-ed ladder of depth and glow and whatever. By the time we get to near ten figure amount, the different between $8000 and $50 should be huge. Only it isn't. Even the most adamant supporters and lovers of super waxes will admit that the difference is small, a nuance, and that you may need a trained eye to see it. So either the performance rungs are extremely small or a matter of perception.

In the end, I do feel that waxes have different looks (although very small and that you do need somewhat of a trained eye), but I do NOT personally feel that price, in any way, shape, or form has any effect on the quality of wax above a certain price point. If you like the look of a super expensive wax, I am sure you can find a very similar or identical looking wax (probably using similar ingredients and made in a very similar wax, devoid of hyperbole) for much less money.

Keep in mind that I write this wearing over priced, non-durable, jeans... :D


What could ANYONE possibly add to this explanation even thought this is an opinion?............ nothing in MY opinion, dead nuts.
 
Re:

I work alot with the Swissvax products and have seen their production process. I agree the pricing is off the charts but it does have a specific niche in the detailing world. I work with some extremely wealthy people and price to them equals quality. It is a virtually hand applied process and my clients feel $1100 dollars is a small price to pay to protect their half a million dollar vehicle with the "best". Sure it is crazy but people will pay for anything when it come to their cars..
 
Buisness is about making a profit.

Someone said very similar things about Rolls Royce automobiles being overtly overpriced, to which Mr Royce replied "The price is decided upon by what the market will stand"

Effect - The high price enabled RR to produce, arguably the best engine ever built

Effect - [Say what you want about Mr. Paul Dalton but he's done a lot for the perception of premium detailing/detailers all over the world.]

So the high price and marketing hype has perhaps provided some value.

As professional's (I hope) we all know the difference between;

a) Factual unbiased information = neither theory or subjective opinion
b) Marketing Hype = Blurring the distinction between science and fiction
c) Opinion = Not necessarily fact or fiction but usually highly subjective
d) Advertised Claims= Nothing more than advertising copy of dubious functional validity.
 
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