some guys expecting too much from LSP?

[wannafbody]

based on some posts and reviews i wonder if some guys here are expecting too much from a LSP- when i read that a LSP doesn't produce an increase in depth over a polished surface it makes me wonder what you are looking for-clear is exactly that- clear-a polish will clean and deswirl the clear-a glaze or any other LSP unless its 100% pure optically will degrade the clarity of the clear coat-even if its 99% optically clear adding 10 or 75 coats will degrade the optics-and anyway you cut it a 2,4 or 10 product detail will never match the beauty of a show car paint job with 5 coats of clear coat

 

[Scottwax]

Wanna bet?



Unless that paint job is absolutely defect free, polishing will improve it. A carnauba based LSP will add noticable depth. It may not be optically perfect but the oils in it will make the paint look deeper.

 

[goceltics34]

Based on the expertise Scottwax has, and the amount of posts he has, I believe him.

 

[MS22]

I have a friend who owns a high end paint shop and I have seen paint jobs over $5K for a soild color he has done. By analyzing your statement those cars with high end paint jobs would reach optical clarity by simply being washed and dried, right? All paint jobs do in fact look better when removed of defects and have a glaze and carnauba applied, even those show car finishes. Look at the articles from the Pebble Beach Concours all of those cars list how and by whom they were prepped, none I can recall were just washed and dried without any other work. BTW, a canister of Souveran costs less than 1% of one of those concours paint jobs you speak of; on second thought lets all just go out and spend 5-10 grand on a paint job for our daily drivers . . . or not.

 

[lbls1]

I'll have to disagree with this one. I have witnessed great imporvement of both clarity and depth with a high quality and proven carnauba lsp. Even with a well prepped surface, your results could be limited if you use lesser quality lsp's of either a carnauba or synthetic. As an example with carnauba, the grade of carnauba (and to a lesser extent) the content percentage usually determines how well the resolution (finish quality concerning clarity, color rendition and depth of reflected objects, separate from sheen) will be produced on a paint's surface.



On the flipside, if your paint needs correcting, which could range from swirls to oxidation, then your lsp will not be able to reach the level of clarity and depth that it has potential for.



My experience has taught me that (although prep is important), the best application of a wax (quality, know how of applicator, and paint media) usually produces the results that "steals the show."

 

[wannafbody]

Scott- i definitely understand that polishing will improve the surface gloss-my impression is that glazes and oils improve the gloss and depth-so in that aspect a multi step with a quality carnauba should have an edge over synthetics-also it seems as if multi step prep prior to adding a sealant may improve the look but is detremental to durability-now are you saying adding 10 coats of layerable product X is going to look as good as a show car or multi step can look as good as show paint? i guess what i'm getting at is-is too much importance being paid to the LSP determining the looks and not the polishing and paint quality determining the looks?

 

[Scottwax]

Based on the expertise Scottwax has, and the amount of posts he has, I believe him.

I wouldn't use post count as a measure of competence. I know people on other boards with 100,000+ posts and some of them are complete morons.



Just as an example of the different look you can get with LSPs alone (I did not do any polishing to this truck yet).



Poorboy's EX w/carnauba (application around 3 1/2 months old at that point, just a QEW wash and Quikshine QD prior to taking pic).

This is right after a QEW wash and a single application of 1Z Glanz Wax:

 

[Scottwax]

Scott- i definitely understand that polishing will improve the surface gloss-my impression is that glazes and oils improve the gloss and depth-so in that aspect a multi step with a quality carnauba should have an edge over synthetics-also it seems as if multi step prep prior to adding a sealant may improve the look but is detremental to durability-now are you saying adding 10 coats of layerable product X is going to look as good as a show car or multi step can look as good as show paint? i'm not saying that multi step doesn't look good but IMO a quality multi coat clear with a glaze would look better than a 2 or 3 step on factory paint-IMO the limiting factor is the paint not the product

I am not a part of the layering fetish crowd. I don't personally see a need for 10+ layers of anything but to each his own. If layering endlessly makes you happy, fine with me.



I think 2-3 layers of a quality carnauba over properly prepped paint (applied at least a few days apart) with give a rich, deep appearance not possible with just a defect free paint job and a glaze.

 

[lbls1]

Additional layers can improve the look, but not necessarily. If your paint is in good shape, then 2-4 or up to 5 will bring its optimal result from the paint.



More "layers" after 5 will become harder to control, and if the wax hasn't settled properly, you will see signs of hazing and streaks. I have found, however, that a well balanced measure of accumulating your wax coatings, and using a good qd in between wax times, and of course allowing proper time for wax to cure, will bring you great depth and longevity from your waxed surface.



Don't go crazy with caking on the "layers" (or deposits) of wax, because regardless of how much you put on, all of it HAS to come off eventually, and start new in order for you to maintain the best finish.

 

[SVR]

Based on the expertise Scottwax has, I believe him.

So do I

I am one of the layering crowd but 3-7 coats is the norm for me, the law of diminishing returns applies.

10 + layers is probably wasting product



With the right combination of sealants or sealants plus wax, the result can be sensational

Every photo of a scottwaxed vehicle makes my jaw drop

 

[RedondoV6]

IMHO, some noobs expect WAY too much from a LSP, they read the marketing and sale pitch and beleive that XYZ LSP will give them the showcar looks they are searching for.



I think the average established Autopian is a whole different animal. AFTER you accept that 89-90% of the final look of a vehicle comes from good prep work (unless it is a new car with very good paint), then the choice of LSP does become a factor. There are differences in looks between LSP's, sometimes much smaller than you might think when reading the debates here at Autopia, but the differences are there, especially between sealants and nuba's.



The final choice of LSP is really a personal one, based on desired look, paint color, metallic or flat, number of uncorrectable paint defects, durability, cost, ease of use etc. but good prep work is what really separates the 'men from the boys' or the 'women from the girls'.

 

[wannafbody]

Scotts work does look nice-IMO the LSP look is a personal preference-some like a soft carnauba look while some like a harder, sharper synthetic look

 

[imported_memnuts]

I like the sealant (Zaino) look on a well prep paint job. My preference is based on the appearance of a "new out-of-the paint-booth" vehicles looks. IMHO a Sealant (Zaino) is closer to that appearance. :nixweiss

 

[wannafbody]

clear and reflective as opposed to warming up the color-or enhancing the color

 

[togwt]

A wax or sealant can only reflect what is underneath it, so a clean, level well-prepared surface is the most important consideration (85% of a surfaces reflectivity is its preparation) along with applied product clarity. If you apply a product over a surface that is dirty or one that has surface imperfections a wax or sealant will not disguise, but highlight them.



Polymers comprise of a long linked, flat chain molecule that lies on the top of the much smaller paint molecule. The chains cross-link to form an open link mesh like structure. The carrier system (solvent) flows across the much smaller dense paint molecules, leaving a very flat level surface.



Although they transmit the surface colour with very little distortion, the molecules are of a uniform size and therefore reflect the surface it covers with very little optical distortion, adding little if any depth, resulting in a very bright, flat silver glow.



Carnauba wax molecules are closed linked, which means that they only butt up together to protect the surface. These wax molecules form an egg-grate type (with the long axis vertical) mesh over the smaller paint molecules of the paint film surface, which gives it an optical, two-dimensional depth.



Colour, Depth and Clarity- the three factors concourse judges look for when scrutinizing paint film surfaces. Of the three, optical clarity is of primary importance, being able to see the paint film' s true colour by having a really clean surface, clarity will enable depth of shine etc to be seen, Carnauba wax dries to a deep, natural shine, in contrast, bees wax, paraffin and many synthetic waxes / sealants tend to occlude (cloud).



An Optically perfect shine comes from a clean, prepared and level surface; it improves the desired optical properties, surface reflectance. The other requirements are surface gloss, depth of shine and applied product transparency (clarity), which allows all of the components of an optically perfect shine to be visible.



The aesthetics of a vehicles appearance is very subjective to say the least, the only best wax or sealant that really matters is what looks 'best' to you. It really does all come down to; 85% preparation, 5% product, 7% application method and the balance is in the â€Ëœguyâ€â„¢ of the beholder.

JonM

 

[Scottwax]

Scotts work does look nice-IMO the LSP look is a personal preference-some like a soft carnauba look while some like a harder, sharper synthetic look

Agreed. EX w/carnauba has a softer, deeper glow than Glanz Wax's harder, more reflective shine. For me, that means EX w/carnauba would look better on darker colors and GW better on metallics and light colors. Others may prefer the opposite, wanting to give light colors a warmer look and give black a more mirror like appearance. Some prefer the same look on all colors. It just depends on what you think looks best.

 

[spotpad]

I prefer to take the "edge" off the "hard" AIO/SG shine by topping with carnauba paste wax (with no polymers please!).

 

[saltydog]

I prefer layering with a good carnauba no more than 2 X, and I think it is all in the prep work. I am satisfied with the longevity but probably because I wax before it really needs it.

 

[Bobsealant]

Originally posted by RedondoV6

I think the average established Autopian is a whole different animal.

After reading these forums for a while now, I'd have to disagree with you. I get the very distinct impression that many people here are hung up on 'brand names', and 'clear vs. salad oil', etc.



As much many of you say prep is important, I sincerely don't think that a lot of you actually believe it.

 

[Bobsealant]

I wouldn't use post count as a measure of competence. I know people on other boards with 100,000+ posts and some of them are complete morons.



Just as an example of the different look you can get with LSPs alone (I did not do any polishing to this truck yet).



Poorboy's EX w/carnauba (application around 3 1/2 months old at that point, just a QEW wash and Quikshine QD prior to taking pic).

This is right after a QEW wash and a single application of 1Z Glanz Wax:

I honestly cannot see a difference between the two pictures. Frankly, I don't know where the differences are that you see.



Nice detail, btw.