Softest. Paint. EVER!

B

BluBrett

New member
Solid black (non-metallic, gloss) Tesla Model S. I`ve tried everything available. 3M line, HD line, Menzerna, Chemical Guys, Mothers Professional, Sonax, and Meguiars Mirror Glaze. I have the full line of pads for large throw pads from: 3M, 3D, HD, Meguairs (foam and microfibre), Chemical Guys, and Rupes.

My best process as of now is:

Makita rotary (cant remember model #)
Rupes LHR 21ES with washer mod

Wool pad + M105 to remove heavy etching
Green Rupes pad + M105 to level
Yellow Rupes pad + M105 to further level (as green pad to white pad is too large of a step for this soft paint)
White Rupes pad + M205 to finish out paint.

I must clean the white pad out every *section* to avoid marring. I`ve taken alcohol and lacquer thinner to Tesla paint is the past because the paint always seems to revert to trashed in a hurry, and I`ve been disappointed by some products other detailers like to use.

I sealed this car with Blackfire Wet Diamond and let it sit in our back lot for a *week*. A WEEK!

Not only did the first wash marr the paint so badly in back-and-forth motions that my polishing step would need to be re-done regardless, but the whole car is etched from damp dew piling on the paint.

Here are my results. In one photo, it appears there are holograms, however, it is simply the result of me washing the hood front-to-back and then removing water streaks side-to-side with a slightly damp, fluffy, seamless microfibre towel.









Any tips for a sealant more resistant to etching, and/or one that prevents light marring? The sealant must be a liquid so it can be applied by machine.
 
Why would you go to all that work and then leave a jet black soft paint car "in the back lot" for a week ???
I would have left it inside for that long - otherwise you have to wash it because of all the crap that gets on it out there...

The last time I used BlackFire Wet Diamond was over 10 years ago and I learned it is very short lived but beautiful during that short time...

The best expert ever on Tesla automobiles is Joseph Torbati - you may want to PM him.. He has seen them all, done them all, for years...
Good Luck !
Dan F
 
What is the water quality like where you work? High TDS?

As far as wash mar goes... don`t get too bummed... it happens. And as far as I am convinced there is not a 100% safe wash technique/ device that will solve the problem in an economically rational way. But right after a 4-step... I would feel defeated too!

Joe T. is probably the best person to consult/ commiserate with. I have worked with black Tesla paint... indeed... not fun but I don`t remember it being ridiculously soft as in your example.

The 4-steps... seems like you could get away with 3 instead of 4. I see you have 3D/ HD products... HD Adapt & Polish not finishing down for you? I think the black Tesla I did was M100/ Megs MF cutting... HD Adapt/ B&S Orange... HD Polish/ B&S Blue or Black (not 100% on that pad color wise.) Wiped down with oil remover (coated.)

And I would be very, very surprised if any polymer sealant prevent the etching from the water. But there are first times for everything!

*EDIT: If you are machine applying a LSP to that soft of black paint... I don`t see how you aren`t leaving pad marks. Honestly. For soft paint like that, I am looking for something like Opti Seal. Something that I don`t have to worry too much about absolute perfect technique with a machine.

Also, Scott Wax (Hair- last name) has dealt with his fair share of soft paint and he is an excellent detailer... I think he would use a soft foam pad and ONR to finish down some soft Subaru paint. You would have to reach out to him to confirm.
 
Dellinger said:
What is the water quality like where you work? High TDS?

As far as wash mar goes... don`t get too bummed... it happens. And as far as I am convinced there is not a 100% safe wash technique/ device that will solve the problem in an economically rational way. But right after a 4-step... I would feel defeated too!

Joe T. is probably the best person to consult/ commiserate with. I have worked with black Tesla paint... indeed... not fun but I don`t remember it being ridiculously soft as in your example.

The 4-steps... seems like you could get away with 3 instead of 4. I see you have 3D/ HD products... HD Adapt & Polish not finishing down for you? I think the black Tesla I did was M100/ Megs MF cutting... HD Adapt/ B&S Orange... HD Polish/ B&S Blue or Black (not 100% on that pad color wise.) Wiped down with oil remover (coated.)

And I would be very, very surprised if any polymer sealant prevent the etching from the water. But there are first times for everything!

*EDIT: If you are machine applying a LSP to that soft of black paint... I don`t see how you aren`t leaving pad marks. Honestly. For soft paint like that, I am looking for something like Opti Seal. Something that I don`t have to worry too much about absolute perfect technique with a machine.

Also, Scott Wax (Hair- last name) has dealt with his fair share of soft paint and he is an excellent detailer... I think he would use a soft foam pad and ONR to finish down some soft Subaru paint. You would have to reach out to him to confirm.
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The one and only reason for the wool pad initially was because water spots will not even consider budging with the Rupes and any foam pad I`ve ever tried, via Rupes, Flex, or rotary. Wool pad is the only way to get their deep etched remains leveled, which is necessary when sometimes a 2012 model with 50k miles is sold as a "new" car (at a steep discount and with the buyer`s knowledge) with strict guidelines.

I know everyone on this forum loves HD and 3D, but frankly, I`ve had issues with defects coming back in the exact same spot. I`m not talking marring, I`m talking about RIDS, water spots, bird bombs, and wet sanding marks. Your results may vary, but IME Meg`s survives my stress tests with chemical wipedowns and heat and cold applications in attempts to reveal hidden defects. HD simply doesn`t, no matter how little or how much I work it.

I haven`t had an issue with applying a sealant on an ultra finishing B&S pad by machine yet. I suppose I should look more into that now that you`ve mentioned it.
 
Have you considered looking into a coating for your protection rather than a sealant. I coated my brothers Harley that has soft black paint. It mars just looking at it. It`s been much better after I coated it.
 
BluBrett said:
The one and only reason for the wool pad initially was because water spots will not even consider budging with the Rupes and any foam pad I`ve ever tried, via Rupes, Flex, or rotary. Wool pad is the only way to get their deep etched remains leveled, which is necessary when sometimes a 2012 model with 50k miles is sold as a "new" car (at a steep discount and with the buyer`s knowledge) with strict guidelines.

I know everyone on this forum loves HD and 3D, but frankly, I`ve had issues with defects coming back in the exact same spot. I`m not talking marring, I`m talking about RIDS, water spots, bird bombs, and wet sanding marks. Your results may vary, but IME Meg`s survives my stress tests with chemical wipedowns and heat and cold applications in attempts to reveal hidden defects. HD simply doesn`t, no matter how little or how much I work it.

I haven`t had an issue with applying a sealant on an ultra finishing B&S pad by machine yet. I suppose I should look more into that now that you`ve mentioned it.
Click to expand...

Brett, not questioning the need for wool/ rotary/ heavy compound. Fully understand that, especially with the defects you listed. Heck, sometimes wet sanding is the better ticket there for reasons that would open another thread and not necessary here because you know and I now why it`s better in some instances.

Interesting you have experienced a `hiding` effect with 3D/ HD... but not totally out of the ball park. How much heat are you generating when polishing? Heat, as you probably know, will swell paint and thus, make a section appear that is is corrected. Every product will tend to hide in the `right` circumstances... mitigating the heat as best as you can will help neutralize or mitigate defects reappearing after a half day, few hours.... next day, what-have-you.

Used cars are a chore. I see why you could possibly be going into 4-steps with uber soft paint. The reason I mentioned 3 was not because I thought the wool/ rotary/ compound was unnecessary (because it surely is when dealing with used black paint that is trashed) but I think there could be some intermediate step that could be possibly be removed. But maybe not.

With HD products... I work them unlike I would work a Meg`s product. HD seems to like longer work time... I don`t know why as it doesn`t break down like a diminishing abrasive set. (They all break down to some degree but others are designed to do so more than others- namely, Menzerna, etc...DAT abrasives.) So with Adapt or Polish from HD, I work them more thoroughly... I don`t short cycle like I could a M105/ M101.)

M205 can be short cycled too... although it is very oily BUT you can come back with the Kevin Brown method of diluted M205 in a quart of distilled water and should finish down properly with no intense ability to `fill` defects.

And I have tried to machien apply an LSP to many `softer` paint systems and when I check them in the sun... I see pad marks. Not saying it can`t be done but I didn`t quote 2hrs. to machine apply an LSP. So I reach for Opti Seal or a spray polymer to finish the job... faster and less worry.

Hope it helps and best of luck!
-Gabe
 
Dellinger said:
Brett, not questioning the need for wool/ rotary/ heavy compound. Fully understand that, especially with the defects you listed. Heck, sometimes wet sanding is the better ticket there for reasons that would open another thread and not necessary here because you know and I now why it`s better in some instances.

Interesting you have experienced a `hiding` effect with 3D/ HD... but not totally out of the ball park. How much heat are you generating when polishing? Heat, as you probably know, will swell paint and thus, make a section appear that is is corrected. Every product will tend to hide in the `right` circumstances... mitigating the heat as best as you can will help neutralize or mitigate defects reappearing after a half day, few hours.... next day, what-have-you.

Used cars are a chore. I see why you could possibly be going into 4-steps with uber soft paint. The reason I mentioned 3 was not because I thought the wool/ rotary/ compound was unnecessary (because it surely is when dealing with used black paint that is trashed) but I think there could be some intermediate step that could be possibly be removed. But maybe not.

With HD products... I work them unlike I would work a Meg`s product. HD seems to like longer work time... I don`t know why as it doesn`t break down like a diminishing abrasive set. (They all break down to some degree but others are designed to do so more than others- namely, Menzerna, etc...DAT abrasives.) So with Adapt or Polish from HD, I work them more thoroughly... I don`t short cycle like I could a M105/ M101.)

M205 can be short cycled too... although it is very oily BUT you can come back with the Kevin Brown method of diluted M205 in a quart of distilled water and should finish down properly with no intense ability to `fill` defects.

And I have tried to machien apply an LSP to many `softer` paint systems and when I check them in the sun... I see pad marks. Not saying it can`t be done but I didn`t quote 2hrs. to machine apply an LSP. So I reach for Opti Seal or a spray polymer to finish the job... faster and less worry.

Hope it helps and best of luck!
-Gabe
Click to expand...

Typically, my only heat is from the wool pad and even then it isn`t even bad enough to begin stretching the aluminum at all. The Rupes 21 is a very cool machine.

I know heat expands, and I can make etching and sometimes 3-5k wet sanding marks reappear after HD Cut and HD Adapt by dry-running a pad over an area until it heats back up. Then the etching or sanding marks, bird bombs, or defect-of-the-day reappears permanently. Maybe I`m wrong, maybe somehow I`m not using the product correctly, but it`s happened too many times just from sitting in the back lot (as they do sometimes, it`s out of my control) for me to keep giving the product the benefit of doubt. I could follow that up with more specific examples but I`d rather discuss that further via PM if desired.

And wait - opti seal is *faster* than a machine for you? I thought those things took some serious time to apply? What spray polymers do you use? I think I`ve tried blackfire`s spray polymers and a random from a small metal spray bottle long ago. Can`t remember the name and they wouldn`t sell any more to us without certification.
 
BluBrett said:
Typically, my only heat is from the wool pad and even then it isn`t even bad enough to begin stretching the aluminum at all. The Rupes 21 is a very cool machine.

I know heat expands, and I can make etching and sometimes 3-5k wet sanding marks reappear after HD Cut and HD Adapt by dry-running a pad over an area until it heats back up. Then the etching or sanding marks, bird bombs, or defect-of-the-day reappears. Maybe I`m wrong, but it`s happened too many times for me to keep giving the product the benefit of doubt.

And wait - opti seal is *faster* than a machine for you? I thought those things took some serious time to apply? What spray polymers do you use? I think I`ve tried blackfire`s spray polymers and a random from a small metal spray bottle long ago. Can`t remember the name and they wouldn`t sell any more to us without certification.
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Hey, no worries. Use what works best for you. There is not one universal set of polishes that solves everyone`s problems or every paint system`s problems so if HD stuff isn`t working then go with what does. Just trying to give you a take on what works on some softer paints for me. Again, i don`t do Tesla`s every day and hope I didn`t imply that. But for soft paint, HD has worked for me.

Opti Seal is NOT Opti Coat. Opti Coat is a professional coating which I am not approved for but I do install other professional coatings. Opti Seal is more or less a spray polymer. Spray polymers I use are: Opti Seal, Car Pro Reload, IGL Premier, Meg`s D156 (D156 for low level maintenance stuff.)
 
Have you ever watched the Larry from Ammo video on using water only to buff paint? I found it by accident and it may be of use to you in this situation. The water keeps the paint cool and the pad does very minor correction. He uses the KB method before and the 105 mixed with water before going to the water only as the last polishing step.
 
jrock645 said:
I`ll just wait for Accumulator to come in and pimp fk1000
Click to expand...

Eh, it wouldn`t be the best look on non-metallic black, even if it did last a long time and shed dirt well.

BluBrett said:
Any tips for a sealant more resistant to etching, and/or one that prevents light marring? The sealant must be a liquid so it can be applied by machine.
Click to expand...

Only conventional LSP that`s *ever* prevented marring for me is KSG layered very heavily.

Nice work sorting out the correction, interesting to me that M205 worked so well for you.

Also interesting that you can do a whole panel before cleaning out the pad, that`s basically never worked for me (at least not to my complete satisfaction).

Can`t help but wonder how well it`s gonna *stay* marring-free....
 
I just did a black Porsche and after beating my head on the final polish I ended up using Carpro Essence with a black CCS pad on speed 3 on my DA. It finished out the paint and the towel did not leave any marks on wipe off.

The only issue I had was it sticking on the bumpers. The fix was a quick pass and immediate wipe. I put two coats of PA Viking Coat on it, and after the 3 hours cure time applied Viking Spritz. The essence seemed to guard against towel marks.

I used M205, FF4000, PA Final polish all with multiple pads. Nothing finished like essence did.

Before:
90b472b7476daa4cdfb541e28ac08488.jpg


After compound with SF2500/Megs Mf finish disc:
2bd616dea492992d525b7baddb3a179e.jpg


After Essence polish:
bde7fa73c88caba217c8923d9c1f96a9.jpg


Final:
aed2589d32bbbe459d82058fc30a97e1.jpg
b44cc7da1b2af3a2a8f070f3aa379917.jpg


Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk
 
BluBrett said:
Thanks everyone! I`m actually doing a long term test of Essence + Reload right now.
Click to expand...

I tried topping Essence with Reload but go little to no beading after a week. I`ve washed my roof several times with various soaps and nothing. Essence is still filling fine so I know I still have something going just doesn`t look like there`s any protection.

I sprayed my roof directly with Reload after the Essence cured for about 3 hours. I shook the reload before each spray and wiped off almost immediately and flipped to a new side for 2nd wipe. I didn`t get any streaking or application issues but it felt almost as if I had buffed it all off in paranoia (after reading all the Reload issues post last think I wanted was excess product making the paint look bad).

What`s your impression so far of Reload over Essence?

Note: my car is parked under two large maple trees that have been in flower so there`s a lot of organic contamination on the paint/coating.
 
Right now my impression of Reload is that it does not work as advertised. I posted the same sentiments on the Carpro site. I was told to contact the company I purchased the product from. That made me not want to buy any more Reload. I bought my bottle from Autopia but I do not feel it is their problem. The manufacturer needs to stand behind their product.
 
rlmccarty2000 said:
Right now my impression of Reload is that it does not work as advertised. I posted the same sentiments on the Carpro site. I was told to contact the company I purchased the product from. That made me not want to buy any more Reload. I bought my bottle from Autopia but I do not feel it is their problem. The manufacturer needs to stand behind their product.
Click to expand...

It`s obvious this products is just not good. There have been so many people with issues - yet, I am dumbfounded why CarPro still sells it and people still buy it.
 
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