So what happens if I don't clay bar and polish my brand new car?

J

Jreepers

New member
It seems like clay barring is highly recommended here and elsewhere, especially for cars that aren't brand new. It seems like it's also recommended for brand new vehicles that just rolled off the delivery truck, but from what I can surmise it's not as necessary, although it's still recommended.



I haven't received my new car yet, but I hesitate to clay bar it when I do. Why? Well when I first read and watched YouTube videos about clay barring, which I hadn't heard about until recently, nobody said anything about the possibility of it marring the paint. After digging a little bit deeper over the past couple of days I'm now seeing that it's very possible and likely, and therefore it seems to be common practice to always polish after clay barring, to get rid of the marring and swirls caused by it.



Because of this, upon taking delivery I'm considering skipping the clay bar and polishing steps, and instead immediately washing it, "cleansing" it with something like HD-Cleanse, and then waxing it with a carnauba wax. And then of course keeping it regularly washed and waxed as necessary.



Is this a bad idea, and if so, why? Will the contaminants that the wash and cleanse failed to remove (the ones the clay bar would've removed) simply prevent the paint from looking as nice as it could, or will those contaminants continue doing permanent damage to the paint?
 
Try the plastic baggie test. If you pass, you don't need to clay. Otherwise you are sealing in dirt and your paint isn't as smooth as it can be.
 
from the moment any new car leaves the factory, it's exposed to all sorts of airbourne contaminants and like dan said, try doing the baggie test and see if it feels smooth and decide from there if claying is necessary. might as well do something right from the start and not cut corners, especially if it's a new car. congrats on the new ride!
 
Questions abound!! What brand of vehicle, what model,if an import, it will have contaminates, if a domestic, depends on the plant and was it transported to your area's inland yard by train, then it's put on a truck.

Look in the door jam for the month of build date, that tells a lot.

One good thing, is that in cold weather the air borne contaminates don't attach deeply into the paint film, that requires warm weather to expand the clear and some moisture exposure,etc.
 
Thanks guys! I actually was already planning on doing the baggy test for kicks at the very least. But let's assume it fails: besides the paint not being as smooth, will my paint suffer any negative effects due to me not removing the contaminants? For example do those contaminants continue to do damage even if regularly "sealed" with a carnauba wax?



(It's a domestic by the way, and I think they transport them by train. Interesting about the contaminants not attaching as deeply in the cold. )
 
Clay only shears off the top of ferrous metal particles and if any acids are in the paint film, it won't remove them. Once the temps go up and some rain/moisture goes down into the clear, etching may start.

Don't understand how heat is part of the equation? What cleans or such better, washing a shirt in hot water, warm water or cold water? It's called creating reactivity.

Then there is the reality that a modern clearcoat is in essence, a "plastic material", and what happens when plastic or even other substrates get hot?

They "expand" and that allows the moisture, which as liquified the acids, to carry them into the paint substrate.

When the temps are colder, the paint film is not expanded, so it doesn't absorb as much.

Working with Ford and Chrysler's paint engineers a few years back, it was found that the average OEM clearcoat could absorb up to a pint of moisture into the clear, then when over a short period of time, good temps and air movement, it evaporated out.

 
Jreepers said:
Thanks guys! I actually was already planning on doing the baggy test for kicks at the very least. But let's assume it fails: besides the paint not being as smooth, will my paint suffer any negative effects due to me not removing the contaminants? For example do those contaminants continue to do damage even if regularly "sealed" with a carnauba wax?



(It's a domestic by the way, and I think they transport them by train. Interesting about the contaminants not attaching as deeply in the cold. )
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Are you looking to do the least amount of work possible or just wondering? You can slather NuFinish on your car twice a year and the paint will last likely longer than the steel underneath it.
 
jreepers- Welcome to Auopia!



Rather than clay, I'd wash it with the decontamination system from Automotive International's ValuGard line, it's called "ABC". Heh heh, I'm a little surprised that Ron Ketcham didn't already suggest it.



The "ABC" system is basically just a series of three washes (alkaline, acidic, and neutral) that works like a charm and is *very* easy to use. I simply cannot imagine anybody causing any sort of damage whatsoever with it. This is the first thing I do to *any* newly-acquired vehicle.



I wouldn't want to "seal in" any contamination. While it's unlikely that it'd cause catastrophic paint failure, why take the risk? IMO it's better to spend a few bucks on the "ABC", give your car those two extra washes, and rest assured that all is well.
 
I didn't as there are so many here who have learned the difference and use it regularly, figured someone would bring it up.

He can go to the valugard.net web site and watch the training video so he's knows what it is, how to use it.

 
Ron Ketcham said:
I didn't as there are so many here who have learned the difference and use it regularly, figured someone would bring it up.....
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That someone being Yours Truly, huh? :chuckle: Seems like I'm always advising somebody to ABC instead of using clay. And here I use clay at almost every wash...I probably come across like some clay-hater or something and that's not the case at all.



People just have unrealistic expectations, perhaps because so many folks think that clay "pulls stuff out of the paint" as opposed to merely shearing it off.
 
Dan said:
Are you looking to do the least amount of work possible or just wondering? You can slather NuFinish on your car twice a year and the paint will last likely longer than the steel underneath it.
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In all honesty, I hesitate to do the work because number one it feels wrong to mar up a brand new car and be required to polish it right away (unless doing so would prevent permanent damage). Number two, as I mentioned in my other thread, I try to stay away from direct exposure to harsh and potentially harmful chemicals as often as possible, and between the chemicals in the polishing product, and the dust created from polishing, I'd like to stay away from them if I can.



Yes, I know, there's bad stuff everywhere and you can't escape that, but when there's something I can avoid, I try to do it if possible.



Accumulator, thanks for the ABC suggestion. That looks more appealing than a clay + polish because it won't mar up the paint, but again there's the issue of the potentially harmful chemicals in such a product that I'd like to stay away from if possible. I'll have to look into it further though, I don't see an MSDS on their website but I'll see if I can get one from them. :)
 
Wow, according to the site it says: "Safe for both the user and the environment, the ValuGard Neutralization System is VOC compliant and uses no carcinogenic or toxic components. Economical to use."



I'll be looking into this further, thanks again!



EDIT: Found the MSDS's on their site. It's definitely not perfect (NFPA health rating of 2/4, which apparently means "May be harmful if inhaled or absorbed"), but again I will at least consider it as a one-time thing.



Dan said:
Are you looking to do the least amount of work possible or just wondering?
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A little bit of both (and I'm still wondering, although it seems the consensus is not getting rid of the initial contamination probably won't cause any harm.)
 
Read the various car manufacturers Technical Service Bulletins that direct their dealers, port operations, etc to use the system.

The MSDS for all products may be found by clicking on Products and the drop down takes you to them.

If it were to do damage, then they would not approved, endorsed or required for use by their dealers, since the car manufacturer is responsible for the paint warranty.

Most of the manufacturers pay the dealers to use the system, as well as reimburse them for the products.

Ford has the ABC system private labeled for them under their MotorCraft brand, as their bulletins will show.

You won't see most vehicle manufacturers today, saying to just use clay by the way.

Nothing wrong with clay, when it is used for what it was intended to used as, "paint overspray".
 
I'm in the clay camp and I've used Clay Magic blue on every car I've detailed, new or well used, and I've never seen any negative results. That rusty color the clay turns tells me that there was crap in the paint that I couldn't see, but, like fiberglass insulation - if you get it in your arm, you know it's there. I don't do the baggie test either, when I'm washing the car, after a rinse, I'll wipe across the panel with a soapy sponge and then slide my finger tips lightly over the paint, you can tell if it's slick or not. Now, those clay towels are another story, I've tried and discarded that idea after I saw it marring up a car, nothing awful and Megs D300 on a MF pad took it right out.

As far clay just shaving off the contaminates - all I can say is that may be the case if you just do one pass, however, I've seen enough of those tiny rust blooms in GM white to know that after a few passes, they're gone, is there a small piece left in that you can't see or feel? I don't know, but it's gone enough for me.
 
Jreepers, i don't think you should have such concerns about claying and doing some sort of polishing/cleaning phase prior to application of your carnauba. You'll get a better result and the product you apply is likely to last longer when applied to a properly prepped (clean) surface. The vehicles that we drive, including yours, are not as fragile as we make them out to be :)
 
Jreepers said:
...[ABC]'s definitely not perfect (NFPA health rating of 2/4, which apparently means "May be harmful if inhaled or absorbed"), but again I will at least consider it as a one-time thing...
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You won't be inhaling it as you're not spraying/atomizing it, and you won't absorp any as you'll be wearing protective gear (namely gloves).



On, while I'm pushing AI/ValuGard stuff, IIRC their New Car Prep is about as safe as "detailing solvents" get...thinking about applications like tar removal/etc. Not saying you need it on the shelf, but that kind of product sounds like just the sort of thing you might have concerns about so I thought I'd mention it.





[Regulars here know that I'm pals with both JuneBug and Tom P, so don't anyone take the following as an :argue]



JuneBug said:
As far clay just shaving off the contaminates - all I can say is that may be the case if you just do one pass, however, I've seen enough of those tiny rust blooms in GM white to know that after a few passes, they're gone, is there a small piece left in that you can't see or feel? I don't know, but it's gone enough for me.
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Before I discovered ABC my rustblooms seemed to "come back" now and then. I'd scratch my head wondering where/how I picked up new contamination, especially if it wasn't during the winter. I finally decided I wasn't getting *all* of the ferrous contamination, hence my interest in doing the decontamination chemically. Since then I've had basically zero recurrance of the rustblooms.



Plus I like the idea of neutralizing all the environmental fallout stuff that clay simply isn't designed to handle.





Tom P said:
Jreepers, i don't think you should have such concerns about claying and doing some sort of polishing/cleaning phase prior to application of your carnauba. You'll get a better result and the product you apply is likely to last longer when applied to a properly prepped (clean) surface.
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I too would do *some* kind of prep, even on a brand new car. If the dealer unwraps /washes it you can bet it'll need polishing.



The ABC will provide the "properly prepped (clean) surface" though, all by itself.



The vehicles that we drive, including yours, are not as fragile as we make them out to be
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I agree completely! Yeah, I do think of autopaint as being extremely fragile when it comes to susceptibility to marring, but that's just a minor cosmetic issue that we Autopians tend to go nuts over. As far as paint *failure*/etc., eh...it'd take some pretty awful neglect to actually kill the factory paint in a functional sense.





jreepers- Hey, just thought of something else; I take my new cars "in the wrapper" and remove the transit film/etc. stuff myself. The ValuGard New Car Prep is, as its name implies, what I use to remove any ahesive residues from the film.



One of the things that used to drive me nuts is the way dealerships often/usually mar up the paint during their new car prep process. Looks OK when you pick it up (because they slather on a concealing glaze), but after a wash or two it looks simply awful, all swirled/scratched up and you think "gee, did I do that?!?". Well, no you probably didn't, the dealer guy did it before you ever saw the car. So now I insist on *zero* cosmetic prep, I even have it written on the purchase order.



Eh, guess it's just a matter of how extreme you want to be about this stuff.
 
[A little bit of both (and I'm still wondering, although it seems the consensus is not getting rid of the initial contamination probably won't cause any harm.) ]



Surface Contaminants



Surface contamination comes from a variety of sources, and can be categorized based the typical size of the particles and what they are made of, they are either organic such as bird excrement, honeydew and bug carcasses or inorganic such as brake dust, bituminous asphalt, etc . Brake dust residue are sharp fractured metallic particulates that embed themselves in the clear coat along with brake pad adhesive, which adheres to the clear coat



If the paint surface has a rough ‘textured’ feel this roughness is most probably due to surface bonded contaminants, these contaminants come about due to exposure to industrial fallout, paint overspray, brake dust, etc. While they usually accumulate slowly over time, it is possible for a single event to cause them. Detailer’s clay and a surface lubricant will generally remove the protruding particle, leaving the particulate below the paint surface to act as a conduit.



Modern clear coat is urethane, which in essence is a thermoplastic, which when heated expands and when subjected to low temperatures contracts. Acid is inert until it comes into contact with moisture, clear coat expansion allows liquefied acids to be carried through the paint matrix down to the metal substrate.



The only way to completely remove sintered (heat fused) ferrous iron particles and acid contaminants is with a dedicated decontamination system that opens up the paint's pores to release iron particles and acidic residue and neutralizes the caustic compounds. In one step, you can eliminate both the cause and its effects.





Does detailing clay pull contaminants from a paint surface?



Contrary to popular belief it does not pull the metallic particles from the paint surface, if this were true it would not need to be abrasive. The abrasives 'shear' the surface contaminates, the particles i.e. the top of the metallic particle are then encapsulated by the clay, leaving the rest embedded in the paint.



Does detailing clay actually remove contaminates or does it just shave off the top, making the particulates flush with the paint?



This would depend upon the type of contaminate. The clay bar may not totally remove rail dust, but it will shave off the protruding particles. It will, however, easily remove surface contaminants like tree sap or paint over spray, which is what it was originally formulated to do





TOGWT® Autopia Detailing Wiki - “What will decontamination remove that washing / clay will not? “ - http://www.autopia.org/forum/guide-...-decontamination-remove-washing-will-not.html



TOGWT® Autopia Detailing Wiki -“ValuGard Paint Decontamination Systemâ€� - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopi...42-valugard-paint-decontamination-system.html



If you have any questions about this article or the techniques used, please let me know or feel free to send me a PM or email
 
Accumulator said:
jreepers- Welcome to Auopia!



Rather than clay, I'd wash it with the decontamination system from Automotive International's ValuGard line, it's called "ABC". Heh heh, I'm a little surprised that Ron Ketcham didn't already suggest it.



The "ABC" system is basically just a series of three washes (alkaline, acidic, and neutral) that works like a charm and is *very* easy to use. I simply cannot imagine anybody causing any sort of damage whatsoever with it. This is the first thing I do to *any* newly-acquired vehicle.



I wouldn't want to "seal in" any contamination. While it's unlikely that it'd cause catastrophic paint failure, why take the risk? IMO it's better to spend a few bucks on the "ABC", give your car those two extra washes, and rest assured that all is well.
Click to expand...

I watched the ABC video. That's actually the same process Ford uses after delivery of new vehicles. I've been through the training, I just didn't realize what product it actually was.
 
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