ShineShop's Best Practices...ONLY COME HERE IF YOU CAN BE CIVIL

[TortoiseAWD]

I know a few that have been banned and I think the important thing to ask is why? Arrogant behaviour? Misinformation? Self serving promotion of their business interests? Is it possible that some people have been banned because they did not "go with the flow" about product usage or procedures that contradict what the powers that be or forum sponsors promoted?

Not one single person, "industry leader" or otherwise has been banned because their methods or product choices differ from someone else's. Not one single person has been banned because they did not "go with the flow". People have been banned for personal attacks, shilling, spamming, degrading remarks about minorities, flame-baiting, and patterns of insulting other members.



I rather take insult at the insinuation that the moderators have a "hidden agenda", or that we're sucking up to sponsors . . . If you have an accusation to make, be a man and make it rather than intimating that there's some kind of impropriety on our part. Please do so via PM, however, as it's this kind of crap that has made the forum such a freaking soap opera over the last few weeks.



Thanks,

Tort

 

[Bobby G]

100% agree on your comments, Tort.



The ONLY reason anyone gets banned from Autopia is because they can't or won't follow the basic rules.

 

[Accumulator]

Yeah, I miss some of the banned folks, but they didn't behave civilly. It had nothing to do with Autopia's sponsors.



Aww gee, I wan't gonna get into this.... But:



Shineshop-



Now, how about some of those "unsound practices"...I'm still truly, genuinely curious. This thread is covering everything *except* what it's supposed to be about!



If you get some flak, so what? I've gotten into it with some "industry leaders" about my frequent spot-claying (among other things) and we just agreed to disagree. Same with disagreements with some other Autopians- I sometimes refer to myself as the "Autopian Heretic" because I don't always follow the "party line", if (big "if") there is such a thing here. Being right isn't a popularity contest.



This presupposing that conflicting opinions can't coexist is a little disconcerting and casts a shadow on the assertion that Autopia propagates unsound practices; it almost sounds evasive. The possibility of disagreement shouldn't preclude intelligent, courteous discussion of the practices being questioned. And if you're gonna blow off Autopia anyway, why not take the risk that you might not please everyone? Maybe somebody will avoid doing damage to a vehicle if your info is posted- isn't that worth it?





I sincerely hope you don't take the preceding as some sort of attack or even as a "challenge"; I just want us to get on with this if there's anything to get on with. [Rant mode off ]

 

[wash-girl]

I'm sorry to hear that Jimmy. You are one of a small select group of contributors to Autopia that I always read .. regardless of the topic. I for one, have always appreciated you taking time out to share your experience and advice.

I agree with RedondoV6 on that point.



As far as the general topic at hand, I find it very disconcerting that some highly knowledgeable people may not be comfortable contributing--or "allowed" to contribute--to this forum. I would really like to have a single place to find all the information available on proper detailing products and methods, and I've always considered this to be that place. After all, "autopia" is just one letter away from being "utopia," so there shouldn't be that far to go.



Lastly, with regard to the stated topic of this thread, I would certainly like to have ShineShop take the first step in the direction of making this forum the complete reference I referred to above. Give us a different point of view, a different take on "the knowledge," and a different set of thoughts to ponder as we approach this activity we all love.

 

[safetyman2010]

This is ridiculous. You guys take this forum (and yourselves) a little too seriously IMHO. I made it clear that when I had some time I would answer the original question as long as this thread does not degenerate into a flame war or become negative. After taking the time to read all the posts since I first saw the original post I see that is probably the direction this will go but here is one recent example of poor information being presented as "acceptable".



http://www.autopia.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43947&perpage=12&pagenumber=1



The process outlined in that thread will make the carpet "cleaner". However, that process has nothing to do with what is tried and more importantly tested processes and procedures used by professionals to clean carpeting and upholstery. You will note that Jim (who has received proper training and uses proper products and equipment) was attacked immediately after posting that the process was incorrect. This is typical of what I have seen here. Most individuals here "experiment" on their own and their customers cars and if they feel something works today then to hell with anyone who says different no matter who they are or how much more they may know about a subject. My comment about "terrifying" was not solely directed to detailing practice either. I would have to ask how many of the people in the professional detailers forum that detail vehicles for money are in compliance with the federal clean water act, have adequate/proper business insurance, have received ANY training and are properly licensed to do what they are doing? That will be bound to ruffle some feathers but it's a hard lump to swallow when it comes down to what is RIGHT - not what is EASY. I am expecting the same old " I don't need to do that because......" explainations but maybe someone will surprise me.

 

[safetyman2010]

I'm leaning towards Scotty on this one...

I still lurk, but I'm minimizing my input.

(And I'm sure no 'industry leader'...)

Jim, don't sell yourself short my friend. You have my respect as a businessman and a dedicated detailer. If only there were more like you in the business.

 

[Accumulator]

Yeah, guilty as charged, I do take myself and this whole detailing/Autopia thing rather seriously. Perhaps too much so, but that's why there's an internet forum about cleaning cars.



I see both sides of the referenced thread, and cleaning carpet is something that non-professionals have to do too, often without the best equipment. Jimmy Buffit got slammed for not being "sensitive enough" and well, civility has become a big issue here recently. He wasn't slammed for saying there is a better way to do it if you have the equipment.



FWIW, on that one, *I'd* get out the Ninja and match the cleaner to the job, but not everyone has that luxury. I dunno if there was really anything *wrong* with the original, "amateur" method though, as long as everything dried out OK the interior was better than before and no harm was done. You wouldn't want to try that on wool carpets, but that's not what was done. Maybe it would be worth pointing out that such a procedure would be the wrong thing to do in some cases, and offer some suggestion for those situations. That would be some good, constructive criticism.



But rather than accuse people of possibly not following clean water regs (hey, I put in a commercial filtration/oil separator in my *home* detailing garage drain- some of us take the environment seriously too ), or having the correct insurance coverage, I'd rather stick to discussing the original issue: unsound detailing practices that might be making Autopia the source of questionable info. Bringing such erroneous stuff to light will help everyone, and bolster Autopia's credibility too. Bringing up different topics just avoids the issue at hand.



How about excessive polishing/compounding with a rotary and harsh products? Or wetsanding to remove imperfections? Those are some practices that might be worth kicking around.



Sheesh, I'm spending too much time on this so yeah, OK, maybe I should just butt out; but I'd still like to know what we're advising that's so awful and why it is. Sorry, but if you kick a (serious ) dog you shouldn't be surprised when he doesn't let go of you.

 

[safetyman2010]

Yeah, guilty as charged, I do take myself and this whole detailing/Autopia thing rather seriously. Perhaps too much so, but that's why there's an internet forum about cleaning cars.



I see both sides of the referenced thread, and cleaning carpet is something that non-professionals have to do too, often without the best equipment. Jimmy Buffit got slammed for not being "sensitive enough" and well, civility has become a big issue here recently. He wasn't slammed for saying there is a better way to do it if you have the equipment.



FWIW, on that one, *I'd* get out the Ninja and match the cleaner to the job, but not everyone has that luxury. I dunno if there was really anything *wrong* with the original, "amateur" method though, as long as everything dried out OK the interior was better than before and no harm was done. You wouldn't want to try that on wool carpets, but that's not what was done. Maybe it would be worth pointing out that such a procedure would be the wrong thing to do in some cases, and offer some suggestion for those situations. That would be some good, constructive criticism.



But rather than accuse people of possibly not following clean water regs (hey, I put in a commercial filtration/oil separator in my *home* detailing garage drain- some of us take the environment seriously too ), or having the correct insurance coverage, I'd rather stick to discussing the original issue: unsound detailing practices that might be making Autopia the source of questionable info. Bringing such erroneous stuff to light will help everyone, and bolster Autopia's credibility too. Bringing up different topics just avoids the issue at hand.



How about excessive polishing/compounding with a rotary and harsh products? Or wetsanding to remove imperfections? Those are some practices that might be worth kicking around.



Sheesh, I'm spending too much time on this so yeah, OK, maybe I should just butt out; but I'd still like to know what we're advising that's so awful and why it is. Sorry, but if you kick a (serious ) dog you shouldn't be surprised when he doesn't let go of you.

That's the kind of respectful, constructive discussion I have no problem exchanging ideas with. With respect to the carpet cleaning discussion, the procedure is flawed in that without hot water extraction (not just shop vaccing it) there will ALWAYS be dirt and soap residues left in the fabric and carpet after the job is supposedly done. What's the big deal you ask? True that it may look better than it did before but if you give a customer the choice of having it done that way or having it done properly and extrected with a true extractor the customer will always ask for the proper method. Extraction with a shop vac leaves behind soap residues that will cause the upholstery to actually become dirtier faster. How you ask? What is the function of a cleaner? When residues of cleaners are left behind they will "attract" dirt from whatever touches the upholstery leading to premature soiling of the upholstery. Makes sense doesn't it. Just because someone can't afford an extractor doesn't make it okay. Can you imagine any other profession running their business like that? I am am of course referring to the guys here that are doing details for money - not the enthusiast doing their own cars at home. My original post was not specifically referring to detailing processes either. I was also referring to some of the business advice that is given as well. I hope I made myself clear here as I am not going to write a book and spend countless hours looking through past posts to find specific examples of bad advice and then refute it.

 

[Scottwax]

First things first-Great article on carpet dyeing in Professional Car Washing and Detailing, Scott. I really enjoyed it. I don't get a lot of really trashed vehicles, but carpet dyeing seems like something I can add to my services so I can make myself some extra money while offering a relatively low cost option compared to new mats or carpeting for my customers.



Second, I would agree with Accumulator that the problem wasn't with what Jim said, but how bluntly he put it. I think it took people by suprise because he is usually so easy going. I've met Jim and spent a few days with him and some other Autopians in California this past May and I do agree with you that he is an asset to the detailing profession. Jim did raise some very valid points, but for those who do not have an extractor available, Sean's (GRStiles) methods would work a lot better than simply using an off the shelf carpet cleaner spray.



Third, I am in still interested in what you have to say. I know you have a lot of experience in the detailing industry and have a very successful shop.



Fourth, there are not a lot of good detailing training course available. Many people learn at dealerships (and I use the term 'learn' very loosely) and then think they can run a detailing business. It just isn't that easy. Not only do you have to know the detailing end but also the business end. I am mostly self taught, but I took advantage of the rolling classroom Meguiars used to send out to their distributors, did a lot of reading and always practiced on my own car first. A real training class probably would have helped me out immensely when I was beginning.



How do you suggest detailers become properly certified? How do you monitor those detailers to make sure they continue to follow industry accepted methods? A lot of detailers 'know' how to detail but because of time constraints, lack of ethics, etc, they cut corners and cheat their customers. How do you stop that except through the marketplace eventually weeding them out? The fixed location detailing shop near me is a good example. They detail most of the cars for the tote the note lots on a street near my mechanic. I was having some work done on my car and walked to a restaurant on that street. Nearly every car I saw on those lots has rotary swirls all over them. Needless to say, this shop, in existance for about 6 years now, has undergone 4 name changes. I suspect the shortcuts they use for the quickie used car details find their way to customers paying full retail. They stay in business for a while but eventually go under, only to have another hack take their place.



I guess it is the same in every business but when it is your line of work, those who do inadequate work reflect on you too.

 

[Mr. Clean]

Originally posted by ShineShop

That's the kind of respectful, constructive discussion I have no problem exchanging ideas with.

Exactly! :up I expect (nor receive) anything less from Accumulator's posts

Originally posted by ShineShop

...the procedure is flawed in that without hot water extraction (not just shop vaccing it) there will ALWAYS be dirt and soap residues left in the fabric and carpet after the job is supposedly done.

I agree that most conversations regarding carpet/fabric cleaning don't emphasize enough the importance of fully rinsing/removing soap residues. I will question you assertion that the extraction must include "hot" water. Is this your opinion or backed by automotive carpet manufacturers? I know that in the home carpet market, manufacturers shy away from recommending steam cleaning as it is detrimental to the "twist" of the fibers.

Originally posted by ShineShop

Extraction with a shop vac leaves behind soap residues that will cause the upholstery to actually become dirtier faster.

Same question as above. If the appropriate amount of rinsing is performed. Are you sayting that the shop vacs do not have the required amount of "lift" to remove all of the moisture/cleaning solution?

 

[safetyman2010]

First things first-Great article on carpet dyeing in Professional Car Washing and Detailing, Scott. I really enjoyed it. I don't get a lot of really trashed vehicles, but carpet dyeing seems like something I can add to my services so I can make myself some extra money while offering a relatively low cost option compared to new mats or carpeting for my customers.



Second, I would agree with Accumulator that the problem wasn't with what Jim said, but how bluntly he put it. I think it took people by suprise because he is usually so easy going. I've met Jim and spent a few days with him and some other Autopians in California this past May and I do agree with you that he is an asset to the detailing profession. Jim did raise some very valid points, but for those who do not have an extractor available, Sean's (GRStiles) methods would work a lot better than simply using an off the shelf carpet cleaner spray.



Third, I am in still interested in what you have to say. I know you have a lot of experience in the detailing industry and have a very successful shop.



Fourth, there are not a lot of good detailing training course available. Many people learn at dealerships (and I use the term 'learn' very loosely) and then think they can run a detailing business. It just isn't that easy. Not only do you have to know the detailing end but also the business end. I am mostly self taught, but I took advantage of the rolling classroom Meguiars used to send out to their distributors, did a lot of reading and always practiced on my own car first. A real training class probably would have helped me out immensely when I was beginning.



How do you suggest detailers become properly certified? How do you monitor those detailers to make sure they continue to follow industry accepted methods? A lot of detailers 'know' how to detail but because of time constraints, lack of ethics, etc, they cut corners and cheat their customers. How do you stop that except through the marketplace eventually weeding them out? The fixed location detailing shop near me is a good example. They detail most of the cars for the tote the note lots on a street near my mechanic. I was having some work done on my car and walked to a restaurant on that street. Nearly every car I saw on those lots has rotary swirls all over them. Needless to say, this shop, in existance for about 6 years now, has undergone 4 name changes. I suspect the shortcuts they use for the quickie used car details find their way to customers paying full retail. They stay in business for a while but eventually go under, only to have another hack take their place.



I guess it is the same in every business but when it is your line of work, those who do inadequate work reflect on you too.

Thanks for the kind words Scott. If you are serious about dying carpets I suggest you contact Bud at Detail Plus regarding his system. It is the easiest to use and wields the best results from my experience. I got my system from Paint Bull when I did my paint training and it works okay but I will replace it with the Detail Plus system when I run out of supplies. Anyway, fixed location or mobile really is no difference to me - just small adjustments. There are plenty of places to get training these days:

- Detail Plus offers training at different locations throughout the year

- Rightlook offers training

- Dingking offers training

- Automotive International offers training

- I-car offers training

There is really no excuse to not get training these days other than somoene not wanting to spend the money or caring if they know the up to date procedures. With respect to the "bluntness" of Jim's post - sometimes the truth hurts. Jim apologized for being so blunt but I wasn't aware that being blunt makes you wrong. Like I said before, extraction is the only way to properly clean carpets and upholstery as is proved by the professional carpet cleaning industry. Can you imagine someone coming to your house to clean your carpets and using a shop vac to extract them and telling you it makes it okay because I just started and couldn't afford the proper equipment?

 

[safetyman2010]

Exactly! :up I expect (nor receive) anything less from Accumulator's posts





I agree that most conversations regarding carpet/fabric cleaning don't emphasize enough the importance of fully rinsing/removing soap residues. I will question you assertion that the extraction must include "hot" water. Is this your opinion or backed by automotive carpet manufacturers? I know that in the home carpet market, manufacturers shy away from recommending steam cleaning as it is detrimental to the "twist" of the fibers.





Same question as above. If the appropriate amount of rinsing is performed. Are you sayting that the shop vacs do not have the required amount of "lift" to remove all of the moisture/cleaning solution?

You are correct that cold water extraction will also work but heat will always do a better job of cleaning than cold. A shop vac would work fine if there was a way for it to appropriately rinse and remove the dirt/soap residues after friction shampooing. However, shop vacs do not have the capability to rinse the carpets rendering them inferior. Water lift was never the issue - rinsing of the fabrics is.

 

[Mr. Clean]

You are correct that cold water extraction will also work but heat will always do a better job of cleaning than cold.

I'll ask again...is your hot water claim based on automotive carpet manufacturer's recommendations, or just your opinion? We can all agree that water is a powerful solvent hot or cold.

...shop vacs do not have the capability to rinse the carpets rendering them inferior.

[/B]

Inferior in suction, which is the sole function of any vacuum? We are assuming that when using a wet/dry vac you will have to be using another method of rinsing. While possibly not as effecient as a single unit, I don't see where it cannot be equally effective. And even perhaps moreso in that it is less likely that the operator will over wet the materials.

Water lift was never the issue - rinsing of the fabrics is.

[/B]

The removal of soap residue(s). Yes, I agree that is the important element in providing quality results. I believe that there is more than one way (hot water extractor) to skin that cat. Indeed someone in the carpet cleaning business could argue that those using portable extractors and not using a truck mounted system are only doing the job half way.



I think a reasonable discussion could be best practices for effectively and efficiently cleaning automotive carpets.

 

[Scottwax]

Scott-I understand the training is out there, but most of it is not local, so you have to wait until they hold a training session in your area or go to them. Some people just can't afford it. I would agree that is not a reason to at least not educate yourself as fully as possible, utilizing the internet and up to date books and magazines devoted to detailing. I would also agree that until you have attained the necessary knowledge and skills required to handle the interior and exterior detailing problem areas, you should stick with friends and family vehicles until you do learn. Learning on a paying customer's vehicle using improper techiniques can knock you out of the business before you even start.



About your home carpet cleaning scenario...I'd be taken aback but if the person could demonstrate they could handle the job that way and would be willing to come out if stains began to reappear, I *might* give them a shot at the job. It would take them forever though!

 

[safetyman2010]

Scott-I understand the training is out there, but most of it is not local, so you have to wait until they hold a training session in your area or go to them. Some people just can't afford it. I would agree that is not a reason to at least not educate yourself as fully as possible, utilizing the internet and up to date books and magazines devoted to detailing. I would also agree that until you have attained the necessary knowledge and skills required to handle the interior and exterior detailing problem areas, you should stick with friends and family vehicles until you do learn. Learning on a paying customer's vehicle using improper techiniques can knock you out of the business before you even start.



About your home carpet cleaning scenario...I'd be taken aback but if the person could demonstrate they could handle the job that way and would be willing to come out if stains began to reappear, I *might* give them a shot at the job. It would take them forever though!

I don't agree with the whole "some people can't afford it" argument. If you can't afford to operate a business properly then perhaps you shouldn't open one. We often hear detailers whine about all the hackers that open and close up shop every day and IMHO that is the biggest reason they do. People open businesses every day that they cannot afford to open or operate properly. I could care less if someone is mobile, fixed location or both. If you can't afford the proper equipment, supplies and training to open a business then you shouldn't be opening one (detailing or otherwise). Tolerance for that kind of BS is what has been killing the detailing industry for the last 25 years.

 

[jimmybuffit]

If you can't afford the proper equipment, supplies and training to open a business then you shouldn't be opening one (detailing or otherwise).

Well, that pretty much sums it up for me. Remember, we are discussing this in the Pro Forum. To me, a Pro is one who does this for a living, or at least as a subsubstantial vocation.



This is not the "I just did my Mom's car Forum".. Here's a simple test to define "Professional": Is your Liability Insurance annual premium paid in full?



Jim

 

[safetyman2010]

I'll ask again...is your hot water claim based on automotive carpet manufacturer's recommendations, or just your opinion? We can all agree that water is a powerful solvent hot or cold.



Inferior in suction, which is the sole function of any vacuum? We are assuming that when using a wet/dry vac you will have to be using another method of rinsing. While possibly not as effecient as a single unit, I don't see where it cannot be equally effective. And even perhaps moreso in that it is less likely that the operator will over wet the materials.



The removal of soap residue(s). Yes, I agree that is the important element in providing quality results. I believe that there is more than one way (hot water extractor) to skin that cat. Indeed someone in the carpet cleaning business could argue that those using portable extractors and not using a truck mounted system are only doing the job half way.



I think a reasonable discussion could be best practices for effectively and efficiently cleaning automotive carpets.

I doesn't matter what my personal opinion is. I base my knowledge through extensive training based on exhaustive research by the companies that provide the training to an individual industry. They research the techniques and procedures and then set proper procedures based on their findings.

 

[Accumulator]

That's the kind of respectful, constructive discussion I have no problem exchanging ideas with....With respect to the carpet cleaning discussion, the procedure is flawed in that without hot water extraction (not just shop vaccing it) there will ALWAYS be dirt and soap residues left in the fabric and carpet after the job is supposedly done. .... I am am of course referring to the guys here that are doing details for money - not the enthusiast doing their own cars at home. My original post was not specifically referring to detailing processes either. I was also referring to some of the business advice that is given as well. I hope I made myself clear here ..

Shineshop- Glad you didn't take my post the wrong way, to be honest it *does* read a little snarky when I look at it today Is "snarky" really a word?



I agree with you about the extractor issue, that's what prompted me to get the Ninja. But for *non pros* I also think that the less-than-perfect method is better than nothing. Heh heh, I might use Resolve on a small stain in our media room, or the Ninja on our Dupont carpet, but if something gets on an oriental it's going to the pros.



Oh, FWIW some wet/dry vac systems do have a decent sprayer (Sears, for instance) as part of their carpet kit, but yeah, it's a rather ineffective setup and anybody doing this stuff professionally oughta get a (real) extractor and learn what they're doing do they don't mess up somebody (else's) car.



Maybe one or more of us misunderstood the intended nature of this thread. I certainly agree with your views about pros, and yeah, this *IS* in the Pro forum (FWIW, I always feel a little about posting anything in this forum but sometimes I honestly believe I can contribute something of value). Far too many cars are messed up by "pros" who don't know what they're doing, and this holds true in other fields besides automotive detailing. With good training available, yeah, people who want to be pros oughta get some. It's not like you wouldn't in any other field. Even "serious amateurs" should consider it. I know I do, and someday I'll either get it or find myself with something I'm unwilling/unable to do because I didn't.



Maybe I should start another, similar thread in another forum, as I'd still like to discuss some (IMHO) ill-advised detailing practices that are pretty commonly accepted around here..but to be honest it would probably just lead to a bunch of contentious :argue so I guess I'll just throw in my $0.02 as civilly as I can when I think I oughta. Hope you and the other knowledgeable folks do too. And I sure hope you and JimmyBuffit stick around so we aren't deprived of your knowledge.



Mr. Clean- There must be a lot of different variables in play when it comes to home carpet extraction. I've had insufficiently cleaned and/or too-wet carpet from both portable and truck-mounted systems. Feel the suction on many truck-mounted units and you'll probably about the idea that it's the only way to go. And think of this...who would you rather trust- yourself with *your* values, standards, and, uhm, smarts or the guy they send out with *his* I've had pro carpet guys (certified, bonded, etc.)that the dogs absolutely *would not* let in the house (I trusted the dogs ), found out later they were shadey characters to say the least.

 

[Bill D]

Amazing how the dogs know!

 

[Mr. Clean]

Are you sure you're a detailer and not a politician



I'll take the answer as "opinion" based on second or third party information. FWIW, IMO personal opinions can be valuable when based on multiple experiences and when specific criteria are discussed. As for industry trainers, they can have their own biases regarding products and equipment, thus the reason for my question as to manufacturer specific recommendations.



And I'll take the answer as no for a discussion on best practices for carpet/fabric cleaning methods.