Self-serve car wash.

C

Carfreak1988

New member
I'm just wondering if it's okay to use self-serve coins operated car wash? I've been using it for a year now and today I come across this from autopia wiki. I'm not talking about the touch-less car-wash specificly, but more so of the water at these place, is it true that they recycle the water?



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopi...-lies-damn-lies-marketing-myths-folklore.html



A ‘Touch less’ or Tunnel car wash must be a safe way to clean your vehicle



Most so called ‘Touch less’ car washes today use a low pH acid as a first step, an alkaline to neutralize it and then high pressure water to wash cars. Hand washing is MUCH preferred, do not use an automated car wash period, touch less or not, there are a variety of reasons:



Local by-laws require car washes to re-claim or recycle water. This means they have two choices.



They can collect the water in tanks and pay to truck it away to a recycling centre or they can filter and then recycle the water (dependant on how often the filters are cleaned /changed) will affect how much dirt content there is. Recycled meaning re-use the same water, which may include any road dirt/grit that is not filtered out is used to high-pressure (1,000PSI) wash your vehicle (somewhat similar to sandblasting) the final rinse is usually twice-filtered re-cycled water, this is to give the appearance of a clean surface on the vehicle.



To help clean the recycled water they use a chemical like Presidium Orthophosphate (TSP) and have the chemical formula Na3PO4. It is a highly water-soluble ionic salt. Solutions of it dissolved in water have a high alkaline pH; this does a great job stripping your wax / sealant. TSP is generally not good for cleaning vehicles because it can corrode metal.
Click to expand...
 
If you live in a part of the country that has long, hard winters, no heated garage, with a good drainage system, then "why not use a "wave-a-wand" to remove the salts, mag clorides', cinders, etc from your vehicle?

Come spring, you can always go out and replace the precious "wax/sealant" that you like!

Getting this sort of corrosive's off the surface of the paint is very important.

More important, if you are going to have the vehicle for more than three years, is to use the wand to clean all the "hem-flanges" of the bottom of the doors, wheel wells, hood flanges, trunk flanges, etc.

Just drive around and look at vehicles which are more than five years old, look carefully at the "area's" I mention.

A good part of them will most likely be exhibiting "corrosive bubbling" starting to show.

The paint system's today will with-stand the salt/cinders/mag cloride put on the roads.

What they will not handle is the small fractures that occur due to normal use of the paint film in these areas.

Once the "paint system", which is not as flexible as you may think, developes small hairline fractures, the corrosive materials get in next to the metal and start their damage.

This corrosive action "creeps" under the paint system, even the "e-coat" of it, and once that happens, you got "rusting".

This damage is NOT covered by the corrosion warranty, which when one reads the warranty, in most, only covers "manufacturering defects", not such as that which I discussed.

Grumpy
 
No kidding, Ketch, it's a serious bummer. Even with religious cleaning, I've got an '09 GMC Envoy that is starting to exhibit that bubbling and rust around the hem-flanges, and it's only got 19K miles on it. My '08 GMC Sierra though is still 100% rust free (17K miles). Must be some differences in how the two are constructed, because both are cared for pretty much the same way.



Oh well. I can fix it as needed I guess :(
 
Thanks for the answers, although it's not the rust that I'm worrying about but the remaining dirt from the recycled water blasting at my car.



I have heard that the "rinse" option is fresh water only and not recycled water, can someone confirm this for me?
 
Wow, rust already? My 2003 Bonneville just started to rust last fall. And that is only the gas fill area of the quarter panel because they used some sort of material between the gas filler neck and the fender that holds moisture.
 
Grimm said:
Wow, rust already? My 2003 Bonneville just started to rust last fall. And that is only the gas fill area of the quarter panel because they used some sort of material between the gas filler neck and the fender that holds moisture.
Click to expand...



Its GM, even though they manage to use the same switches and knobs on cars from $15k-100k, somehow there is a huge variance in paint quality. They always seem to be playing around with paint formulas and in the end the customer loses.
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
No kidding, Ketch, it's a serious bummer. Even with religious cleaning, I've got an '09 GMC Envoy that is starting to exhibit that bubbling and rust around the hem-flanges, and it's only got 19K miles on it. My '08 GMC Sierra though is still 100% rust free (17K miles). Must be some differences in how the two are constructed, because both are cared for pretty much the same way.



Oh well. I can fix it as needed I guess :(
Click to expand...



Very common problem with the Envoy and Trailblazer, just about everyone I've seen has this problem.
 
Not really correct, Dan.

The "paint" as you refer to it, is not the real culprit, it's the "e-coat" and how the flanges are put together.

Those, combined with various areas of a vehicle, like the use of a foam in a cavatity to dampen road vibration will collect not only the moisture, but the corrosives that are in the moisture.

Another area are the doors, which get "hit" against a curb or such, creating a microsopic fracture in the paint system (mainly the e-coat portion), moisture carries the corrosives into the area, it creeps under the e-coat to bare metal and over a short time in the life of the vehicle--rust.

The parts need not be steel either, an example was a few years back some Ford Explorers had an aluminum hood. They corroded at the front edge hem flange as well.

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Not really correct, Dan.

The "paint" as you refer to it, is not the real culprit, it's the "e-coat" and how the flanges are put together.

Those, combined with various areas of a vehicle, like the use of a foam in a cavatity to dampen road vibration will collect not only the moisture, but the corrosives that are in the moisture.

Another area are the doors, which get "hit" against a curb or such, creating a microsopic fracture in the paint system (mainly the e-coat portion), moisture carries the corrosives into the area, it creeps under the e-coat to bare metal and over a short time in the life of the vehicle--rust.

The parts need not be steel either, an example was a few years back some Ford Explorers had an aluminum hood. They corroded at the front edge hem flange as well.

Grumpy
Click to expand...



Ron, whatever it is, there is a big variance in paint quality among GM cars. Perhaps the "e-coat" is one aspect, but I've had my fair share of cars. I've seen Cavaliers that had better paint than my Impala SS. Then there is my vette, it appears to have paint on par with Audi or MB. The paint quality varies greatly by model, even year. My point was not what was causing the failure, my point was the customer always has a surprise when buying a car from GM when it comes to how long the color is going to stick on their car.
 
That issue is pretty much true for all the Big 3.

Early 90's Chrysler mini vans, two to three years, the clear was going away (saved money, only one application of the clear), early 90's Cavaliers-GM-produced at the plant in Mexico, clear delamination, but not those built in the US plant (had to do with a metal recycling facility that was a mile from the assembly plant), Lincoln Town Cars, late 80's/early 90's-choice of inferior clear by plant, etc, etc.

I could go on and on regarding such issues, many of which I was called in on at one time or another to do some detective work.

Grumpy
 
salty said:
Very common problem with the Envoy and Trailblazer, just about everyone I've seen has this problem.
Click to expand...



What's odd is this is my fourth (had two other Envoys, and one Trailblazer SS over the years) and this is the first one to have a problem in that area. I've also had/have several customers with TB/Envoys, and I've only seen a handful with rust issues.
 
Dan, I have discussed this in some other threads from time to time.

Not often is there a "paint material quality" issue, more often it is a "plant application issue".

Assembly plants rely on human beings to monitor, observe, set up the atomizing bell applicators, insure the ovens are at correct temperature, etc, etc that are used to apply the surface primers, base coat and clear coat. The E-coat is a "dip process" of the white body, first step of the "paint process".

If the plant personel are having a bad day or a bad whatever, and are working in the paint kitchen, those vehicles may very well have inferior paint system application.

In my decades of working with 9 of the world's vehicle manufacturers and their paint/trim/corrosion concerns, less than aprox 10% of major issues were due to low quality materials, most concerns were "people related".

Grumpy
 
A few years back, the GM point for GMC/Cadillac in Brighton, Mi, hired a former employee of ours as Service Manager.

He showed me warranty paper work on dozens of hem flange corrosion claims for GMC vehicles and said his counter part at the Chevy store was having the same thing going on.

Went to Bob Hartman at GM Body Tech Center in Warren to discuss this.

Investigation indicated that most of the concerns were coming from vehicles which were drove on the interstate highways where the mag cloride was used, with the vehicle then being driven on gravel roads following the high way use.

This allowed the mag cloride to have an opportunity to "attach to the hem flange areas". Every time the area got moisture, the mag cloride went back to work eating away at the flange areas or some cavatities.

Bob told me it was a "plant issue", as well as a "design issue" and while they were slowly getting the plants to make some procedural changes in their processes, it was going to take time to get all the plants in line.

We worked up a fix for the concern, however the "bean counters" and legal eagles for GM didn't want to create too much publicity regarding this issue due to public image. IE, "so a few have issues and we fix it, but if we make it public and the media picks up on it, we'll have claims coming out of the woodwork!"

Ford and Chrysler issued TSB and Service/Repair Proceedures in 2007 regarding fixes for their owners claims, requiring the use of "only Motor Craft Rust Inhibitor and Motor Craft Undercoating, following any body repair of corrosion or regarding any cavatity". Chrysler did the same, only speced MoPart Rust Inhibitor and MoPar Undercoating. This is for "all repairs, be it accident repairs or corrosion repairs.

The products, in both cases had to meet or exceed ASTM-117B standards, which they did, including the undercoat material.

Guess who makes the product for both of them?

3M couldn't pass the test, neither could any other domestic manufacturer of such materials

ValuGard's rust inhibitor and undercoating are the "required materials" for Mazda, Hyundai, Kia and Nissan-same product as Ford and Chrysler, just with their label on them.

So, I hope this gives you and others a little background in to issues such as this, and helps all understand just how important it is these days to keep the underbody, control arms, all hem flanges, etc clean of corrosive elements.

Grumpy
 
Carfreak1988 said:
I have heard that the "rinse" option is fresh water only and not recycled water, can someone confirm this for me?
Click to expand...

Yes, the final rinse in any (respectable) car wash will be fresh water.





Ron Ketcham said:
The parts need not be steel either, an example was a few years back some Ford Explorers had an aluminum hood. They corroded at the front edge hem flange as well.

Grumpy
Click to expand...

Great info Ron! Ford F-Series and Expeditions were notorious too. I actually looked at Buick Rendezvous yesterday that had terrible alloy corrosion on both sides of the hood as you describe:



EMC4382001_5.jpg


EMC438200 1_4.jpg
 
I noticed those same kind of issues with Pontiac Bonnevilles and Olds Auroras coming out of the Lake Orion, MI plant back around 2000-2004 or so -- the front edge of the hood, usually over the passenger's headlight, would start to form rust after only a couple of years. The way it was in such a consistent location makes me think whatever apparatus was holding on to the panels when they were dipped must have been in that spot, making for weaker coverage with the E-coat.



Also had not long ago an S197 Mustang with an aluminum hood that was bubbling up. Found a TSB from Ford stating there were issues with "iron contamination of the aluminum prior to painting" that was causing the problem.
 
And most of the body shops that repair alluminum don't have the proper facility to do the repair in the 1st place. You gotta have a dedicated alloy/clean area and separate tools that will only be used on alloy. Ron - you'd call that Galvanic Corrosion right?
 
Shiny Lil Detlr said:
What's odd is this is my fourth (had two other Envoys, and one Trailblazer SS over the years) and this is the first one to have a problem in that area. I've also had/have several customers with TB/Envoys, and I've only seen a handful with rust issues.
Click to expand...



And for me it is the opposite. Just about every one I see, has more rust than any other vehicle. I do a lot of dealership work, so I've seen a few. Not sure why.
 
I've read that some touchless washes use such an acidic soap it can easily take your LSP right off. That's what I'm more worried about if I were to go to one. But ONR has saved me those troubles.
 
I beleive that would be correct.

Beth has some CD's we did for insurance adjusters, body shops, etc regarding all the different corrosion values.

It is the one I presented at the I-CAR International Convention in Orlando a few years back.

Give her a call, she'll be glad to give you one.

800-543-7156

Grumpy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top