sedan hp wars & high gas prices??

[velobard]

Energy independence is an admirable goal, but considering how energy resources (for current technologies) are distributed throughout the world, I'm not sure how it can realistically be achieved. That said, we can do MUCH more, but for now we have to lean on oil while we push for new technologies. Energy independence means we'll have to make full use of the oil resources available to us and that will mean exploring and drilling in areas where the oil is, building more refineries, and be willing to lean on Canada as a resource for their oil sands. One of the things that makes importing oil so appealing is that so many of the messy, ugly production facilities are not in anybody's backyard here.



One thing people are leaning on these days is alternative fuels, such as ethanol and other bio-fuels. Unfortunately, while it is a step foward, there are limitations and liabilities here as well. All these fuels take a fair bit of energy to produce and the production requires massive amounts of water. There's also the fact that in the case of ethanol we're using a food resource and any bio-fuel is using a commodity that doesn't exist in sufficient quantities to do more than put a dent in oil consumption.



Here's an interesting article I came across about ethanol production:

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060707/OPINIONS02/607070333/1091

 

[autoweenie]

The points he made, although done in a tasteless way,

Ouch! My rant was meant to be "tongue in cheek".



Look velobard, since 9/11 I am sure you are sensitized to some of the stuffs eminating from the middle east. Check out their various news media/web sites (especially from our "buddy" Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc). You will need prozac to read the stuffs.

It is obvious that these people, given the opportunity, will do us great harm without blinking an eye. It is also equal obvious of their methodology. They are

using their petro dollars to fund various jihad movements around the world. They are building madras in poor Islamic countries (such as Pakistan, Yemen) and staffing with the most rabid haters brainwashing small kids with their brand of ideology. These kids will grow

up to be their foot-soldier in their global jihad and will be willing to commit great atrocities

without any moral qualm.

Knowing what they do, why are we doing our darnest to help them along by buying their "product". Do you think by being "outraged" at their methods, they will nicely stop their

atrocities?



Look at Iran, a few years back, the mullah regime was in serious trouble due

to their economy. Now, these same rabid haters are making a great come back due to

their coffers being filled with petro dollars. This really limit the leverages that we can use

against them. We can't even get Russia and Chinese to go along with us in the security council. The Russians are playing hard ball because they are also flushed with petro money.

They know they can tell us to take hike anytime (and they are doing just that).

The Chineses are kowtowing to the Iranians because they need their oil and they know

that the mullahs will be in charge for a long, long time due to the money they are getting

from the oil.



Look, I am a realist. I don't think we will be energy "independent". However, I also know

something about law of supply and demand. If we cut down our petroleum usage drastically,

the demand will plummet and and petroleum price will plummet too (yes, the Chinese and Indian are using a whole bunch of them too - but we can always take ourselves out of that

demand equation). No, I am not talking about going back to the stone-age. But I am all for

knowing the true cost of our oil addiction so people can make informed choices. And these choices including status quo and knowing that a lot of these money will enable our haters to do damage to us.

I am sure some new technology will come along and help us somewhat with the situation.

But conservation is something we can do now. Yes, it will be somewhat painful. But don't

you think the situation warrants that? Darn, what happens to the generation after the "greatest generation"? Are we so soft now that we can't even consider some sacrifices

for this republic?



At any rate, I don't mean to be "tasteless".

 

[Tasty]

Darn, what happens to the generation after the "greatest generation"? Are we so soft now that we can't even consider some sacrifices

for this republic?

The short answer to that question is: Yes. We are in the age of this mentality where everyone thinks whatever they do is their right to do, and don't you dare think of infringing upon it.



As for oil independence there are a lot of things that would cost money up front, but would reduce our petroleum needs exponentially. One is public transportation. How many of us live in areas where the freeways get wider and wider, or taller to accomadate all of the one passenger cars driving all over the place? Here in Houston it never ends, and never will end until the mentality shifts away from, "It's my God given right to drive to work in my Hummer by myself". If there were a rail system from my house into downtown, I would never drive down there again unless special circumstances arose. Another thing that would help is shipping more goods by rail. It's far more cost effective, and requires less energy to move things that way. Expand the rail system in this country and get some of these damn 18 wheelers off the roads. The problem with all of these solutions is that there are powerful lobbying groups that will protect their interests to the death, even if it is to the detriment of this country.

 

[velobard]

Tasty, I've spent a lot of time on the highway driving with the huge number of semi's on the road. It's a massive increase from years ago, like when I started driving in the 70s. I also live a couple of blocks from a rail crossing where I see a huge increase from the number and length of trains at the same crossing from when I was younger. What it boils down to is, we're moving lots more stuff than we did in years past. I don't what we're going to do about that, but rails are being used quite a bit more, but I think you do have a point that they could be expanded and used even more. As for personal transportation, public modes of transportation are good in metro areas and should be expanded. The stigma of riding the bus, etc should be addressed as well. I've also spent a lot of time living in rural areas where it would never work. Due to other circumstances, I recently spent a year living in a town where factories flourished, but there was no demand for my professional skills. I couldn't even get a job on an assembly line because they knew as soon as a better offer came my way I'd be out the door. I hunted for a job for 3 months and finally had to take one 63 miles away, with no chance for carpooling or any other choice besides driving myself. My wife was finishing school and had to drive 1 - 1.5 hr in the opposite direction every day. When she finished school, we moved to an area where we could both live near work. For my part now, I get around a reasonable amount by bike, but I also enjoy mountain biking so I'll plead guilty to occasionally driving to the trailhead to ride for recreation.



CW, if you meant that as tongue in cheek, I'm afraid I didn't read it that way. That's one of the limitations of the Internet. Sensitized? Yeah, I'm sure I have been, in the same was that America was sensitized after Pearl Harbor, Spain was sensitized after they were attacked by Germany in the 30s, etc. I do regularly read news from sources like arabnews.com and gulfnews.com. I also figure since these are English-language sources they know they'll be read by Americans and filter the news even there. I'd imagine if I could read Arab I'd find much more hard-core stuff. We're dealing with people who have a totally different view of life than we do. Some groups in the mid-east feel that life is cheap, including their own and that by creating chaos, they've scored a victory even if they die in the process. Hatred is fostered to a frightening degree. I'm convinced America could tip-tow around on eggshells and it wouldn't change their attitude, that many groups there are empowered and thrive on having the great and evil America to hate. The empowerment of radical leaders over there is not to be underestimated, they need a target or they feel neutered.



We spent many years digging ourselves into this quagmire, it's not going to be cured anytime soon. Fuel cells, solar energy, wind farms, etc. can all help, but attitudes of radicals in the mid-east are like an open Pandora's box.

 

[topnotchtouch]

I think part of the reason building a mass transit system here in the US is that there can be a pretty fair distance between population centers. I know for example Florida has been trying to get a high speed rail system between Orlando/Tampa/Miami for years with little success.



http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org...ighspeedrail.web.FreeTextManagement?cmd=start



I think the only way we are going to see projects like this come to light is more Federal funding unfortunately. So far I don't see that happening.

 

[Tasty]

I think part of the reason building a mass transit system here in the US is that there can be a pretty fair distance between population centers. I know for example Florida has been trying to get a high speed rail system between Orlando/Tampa/Miami for years with little success.



http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org...ighspeedrail.web.FreeTextManagement?cmd=start



I think the only way we are going to see projects like this come to light is more Federal funding unfortunately. So far I don't see that happening.

If people realized how much money actually came out of their pockets each year for oil company subsidies, and how convoluted the oil game actually is they probably wouldn't have a problem passing bonds to fund things like public transit.

 

[WSUcommuter]

We spent many years digging ourselves into this quagmire, it's not going to be cured anytime soon. Fuel cells, solar energy, wind farms, etc. can all help, but attitudes of radicals in the mid-east are like an open Pandora's box.

I saw this quote used on Rescue Me the other day on FX:



"You know what is left after everything leaves Pandora's Box? Hope." I was tired when I saw it, but you get the idea...

 

[velobard]

I think part of the reason building a mass transit system here in the US is that there can be a pretty fair distance between population centers. I know for example Florida has been trying to get a high speed rail system between Orlando/Tampa/Miami for years with little success.

And Florida is MUCH more densely populated than many other states. I currently live in Missouri, which is largely rural, and in the past I've lived in Colorado, Arizona, Idaho, and Utah. It would simply not be practical to do anything outside of the large cities there. (Wait a minute, does Idaho have large cities??? :nixweiss :chuckle: )

 

[velobard]

I saw this quote used on Rescue Me the other day on FX:



"You know what is left after everything leaves Pandora's Box? Hope." I was tired when I saw it, but you get the idea...

There's more than one way to take that, lol. Should we help empty the box? I think that's essentially what we're trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan these days.