Recent Happenings

Not that Anthony requires anyone to come to his side of this issue, as he seems to be a grown man and quite capable of handling his own business. I'm having a bit of trouble typing this as I'm currently bent over from laughter at the "holier than thou" stances some have taken. I've read a numerous product reviews on this and other sites. Of those reviews, most are postive, few are negative (unless intended as a product bashing) , and even fewer discuss in detail pros and cons or cons and pros of a product.



Though it is a bit disappointing to read favorable reviews (or posts) for products not yet available to the general public, Anthony would not be the first to do so (was Blue Moose or whatever ever released?). In light of the bad taste in some member's mouths regarding the pre-release hyping of NXT, this probably wasn't a good idea on the part of eShine to have his product reviewed without a product available for the general public. But, if ya'll decide to burn A.O. in effigy at least he won't be lonely as he will be joined by Scottwax who also initiated his own two threads regarding the Shokar product.



Maybe if Chris had passed out free samples to the entire forum membership, there would be less grousing :rolleyes:
 
eShine said:
Anthony's first sentence when he did the first review on ShoKar,



"I was sent some time ago two samples of ShoKar acrylic cleaner and sealant to test out.".



He did disclose the info you ask of.



Are you guys suggesting Manafactures should not ask for members opinions through sample testing? Every Manafacture needs this feedback in order to release an acceptable product.
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Nothing is wrong with using members to evaluate products. It's the fact that a review was published without a product being available to the market. If the evaluation was intended for the supplier or the manufacturer then it should be sent to those responsible and not published in a forum.



Scottwax said:
I'd post negative reviews when warranted myself but no one is sending me crap to test.
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How'd you get the ShoKar?



Scottwax's Shokar Review
 
If a product is released and used, it deserves good and bad reviews. If it never gets a negative comment, then the BS flag should come out. Nothing is perfect.
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I agree. There should almost always be pros and cons. Sean has been doing this in his recent reviews and I find that helpful.
 
I understand that, Chris; I meant that when the review is posted in the reviews section, it should be disclosed.



I don't think that anyone's doing anything evil on purpose, or being intentionally subversive; really I don't. But it's not good for the community. I think it's absolutely understandable for a new member to question the validity of and motivation for a review of a product received by a professional as a free sample. Seriously; you get a free sample, use it, like it... what is the reason for writing a good review then? The answer is, obviously, to tell others about a fabulous new product... which then give manufacturers and distributors plenty of incentive to send you new product. I don't mean that you write the reviews to get product. But, the people who send it to you certainly don't mind you writing the reviews.



And, it's difficult for me to understand writing up only the products one likes; that makes it impossible to place the reviewer in a context relative to one's own likes and dislikes.



If I stepped on some toes here, I'm sorry. I understand that nothing is being done underhandedly; it also needs to be understood that this information cycle is dubious at best. The reviews section is here for reviews.



Tom
 
I don't think its a question of a fair review.



The sole purpose a member on this board is sent a product is for it to be promoted. Who are we kidding? If you needed feedback, did the review need to be posted here? You can't test a polish in house?



Whether promoting products on here is right or wrong is up to the staff. But that is exactly what is going on.
 
L33 said:
I don't think its a question of a fair review.



The sole purpose a member on this board is sent a product is for it to be promoted. Who are we kidding? If you needed feedback, did the review need to be posted here? You can't test a polish in house?



Whether promoting products on here is right or wrong is up to the staff. But that is exactly what is going on.
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It is my understanding that the products were sent and a review on the boards were not asked of the testers.



They didn't tell them not to, but they didn't tell them they should. Nobody is "at fault" but it really makes it look a little underhanded.



This is the type of thing that created the NXT hype. Big long threads by Mike Phillips (and I am not saying he is the devil and the hype was his intentions) before it was available to the public. People ordered it and found out heck this stuff isn't what was though. I don't think we need to repeat that ordeal.



This is all in perception of what is going on and none of us can say what really went on but I'm going to put on my nice hat and give the benefit of the doubt to the people involved. I'm sorry if I offended anybody, but it really doesn't look very good from the outside.
 
If somoene doesnt want to post negative reviews, thats his right, isnt it?



This is still the USA, even with Bush in office :)
 
I understand how sometimes the *appearance* of possible impropriety is enough to make some people cry foul, but anybody who actually knows the people in question here would tell you that nothing underhanded is going on. If that's not good enough for somebody, well, OK, I understand. Guess I'm just not as quick to cry "horse****" as some people. And I'm still not the kind of guy who steps in it very often ;)



And I don't see this stuff as being analogous to the NXT pre-release situation as this isn't a case of a *manufacturer's employee* leading the cheering section.



And despite what he himself says, Anthony doesn't only post rosy-view reviews. His descriptions of the new Cyclo pads has me thinking that they're not quite ready for primetime (yet). But I know that when he says something works, it *does*.



And in-house testing isn't the same as having someone unfamiliar with the product test it "in the field". To *not* do this would be poor pre-release evaluation. Did they expect a nice review? Maybe, but what if the product was a dud? It was a calculated risk and I assume they did a risk/benefit analysis. NO, they didn't offer *me* a sample either, but then I'm not a pro doing a lot of different vehicles.



The real upshot of this whole brouhaha is that E-Shine is quitting Autopia. Regardless of his product, I'm sorry to see that happen, just as I'm sorry to see Mike (and Lynn) Phillips not posting here very often. I can sort out the shilling from the rest, and these people still have good info to offer.



[Accumulator quits ranting and sheepishly climbs down off his soapbox :o ]
 
I agree with the "I can tell" part, 'Cume. I can, too. But the new guys, who are always coming through, can't.



I'm not interested in limiting or eliminating participation, or saying that the reviews shouldn't be written; I'm saying that there is a "Reviews" section of Autopia, and ALL reviews should be done in the reviews section rather than in the Forum, and it should be stated if the review was done from a free sample.





Tom
 
I'm neither a professional or have vast experience with a great deal of products used on many different vehicles, but I value ALL information, good, bad or indifferent. I never get free samples from manufacturers and I don't think I've posted any reviews, although I have raved/bragged/shown off a bit about some. When I first joined Autopia about 18 months ago after lurking for a couple of months, I was impressed by the candor in the product and methodology discussions.



I have a somewhat limited budget so must spend my money effectively and a lot of reading was done before is settled on my products of choice - something I would have been unable to do if every product was considered "God's give to paint treatment". On this board there are different groups of detailers - some who have settled on a few products who use them intelligently and well. There is another group who jumps onto the "latest product craze" who hype the hell out of this and that, only to find out it lets them down at some point in the future. This is not a slam against either group because for me it supplied me with the information *I* needed to make my product choices.



Occasionally, I will make a sortie away from my go-to list. Some times I am happy and other times not. That was my choice and no one elses and no one but me has that responsibility for that action. I haven't bashed a product or product vendor. If displeased, I keep quiet and move on to something different. If pleased, I must be repeatedly pleased over time and then I might offer something positive.



All of the above is my long-winded way of saying "let products (existing or potential) sink or swim on their own merits". Period. If the guru's rave, then I better see lots of raving by professionals and amatures alike before I consider a purchase. If something is panned, well that is just tough luck. If there is revival and more people jump onto it and get good results, then I just may reconsider *MY* opinion of it.



It is freedom of speach in action and at its best. Let it continue unabated!
 
I don't think products not available to the public should ever be reviewed on this forum until or unless they are available.



If a mfr. of a product sends out samples to a detailer to evaluate it should be between the reviewer/evaluator and the mfr. and not part of this forum.



By posting a review for a product on a semi-public you are just trying to create hype and interest.



I purchased Optimum based on the reviews here and elsewhere. Seems all the reviewers failed to mention that the product seperates and must be shaken before being used. That fact alone would have caused me not to purchase it.
 
RIC said:
I don't think products not available to the public should ever be reviewed on this forum until or unless they are available.



If a mfr. of a product sends out samples to a detailer to evaluate it should be between the reviewer/evaluator and the mfr. and not part of this forum.



By posting a review for a product on a semi-public you are just trying to create hype and interest.



I purchased Optimum based on the reviews here and elsewhere. Seems all the reviewers failed to mention that the product seperates and must be shaken before being used. That fact alone would have caused me not to purchase it.
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I agree fully, if we can't use it don't bother reviewing it. Don't dangle any carrots that aren't needed. If you create a review and the product is available than we get to make our own decisions.



By the way this is a FORUM, open discussion, moderation is appropriate but never censorship. We are old enough to know what goes and what doesn't:xyxthumbs
 
I have felt for some time now, that there are some people who use their influence to promote and encourage products. What bothers me is that these same people think that us detailers don't know a sales pitch when we hear one. The second someone starts tooting their horn about this product or that product, a red flag comes up. Especially when those same people list where you can purchase them and even display websites. I'm not discouraging honest product reviews. Let's just keep them unbiased. I want to hear the positive and the negative. I don't want to spend my hard earned money on products that don't meet what the manufacture states it will. I don't need to be coddled with only positive reviews neither. Stop selling and start reviewing, with the passion I know we all have for honest, unbiased reviews.
 
ive seen a couple of reviews anthony did that had negative feed back on them, I dont know which but i have seen some. i guess everyone has their own agenda and theres some detailers that like one line of products and theres others that like another line. Im not a professional and i dont get to test anything but i dont see whats any different from Poorboys sending out samples of EXP+ and reading reviews on it. Were there any negative comments on that product NO. But hey you never know it probably is a good product i dont know. What i do know is that if someone test a product and they dont name anything thats a con i dont see it as them taking sides or working for that mft.

Maybe that individual couldnt find anything wrong w/it and maybe the next person will. In other words Person A may think the world of NXT while person B can care less. I guess its more how you use the product which determines if you like it or not.
 
my take on this whole situation is as follows... first of all, i know i have tried many products, and for some reason, the ones i dont like, i do not mention. now, that does not mean i am promoting them, or not promoting them, but rather that i dont like them so i could honestly care less about them. basically what im saying is that its human nature to me, not to talk about something i like. so if i like it, of course im going to bring it up, and praise it.



when you look at people, everyone is different, and some people might like to discuss the negatives of a product, or products that they dont like, while others just want to talk about things they do like. everyone is different, as stated before, so just because one person does something differently than others, i do not think there is a problem with it.



what im trying to figure out, is are there different standards set for people on the forums than others. i mean if you post a lot, and keep talking about certain products, or make a list of products does that always have to mean you are trying to sell something? its almost as if some people try to pick you apart, and talk crap. i remember someones signature saying something like this "find a product that you like, and use it often." so if you find something you like, of course you'll use it often.. makes sense right? so then you'll always have good things to say about it.



I always use poorboys products recently, but does that mean i work for steve, and im trying to sell them? obviously other people are going to believe different things, and the way they read something will always be interpreted differently by that individual.



i dont understand how you can get banned for posting your findings on a product, and even if it is a sales pitch, who cares? is it that hard to deal with? if everyone is educated enough, they knows that sales pitches dont mean squat unless theres something to back it up, or if you know its a product that works from your OWN experience. also, how can you say that someones reviews are biased? the whole point of the review is for that person to review how they feel about the product. if you want an unbiased view about a product, why wouldnt you do it yourself, so that it meets your criteria?
 
Holy Moly!



I go to work after posting this, come back at about 7PM and man my PM box is jumpin and this thread is like a monster!



Let me sooth some troubled waters.



I only post positive reviews mainly because I am not seeking to offend anyone publicly. I do though send emails or call them personally if I feel things can be improved or perhaps changed.



I am doing this now with Cyclo and these new paint correction pads. Mainly with fit and finish. Some thinsg have me worried and since this is something that I came up with personally I really hate for it to be a misfire! It may come about that it does not fly at all, we must wait and see.



As for my reviews I do in fact give some "cons". Case in point, I did point out that Optimum seperates and must be shaken. I did post that Optimum does not work well in cold, wet weather. I posted that Optimum tire gel does not work well with a conventional sprayer. I posted up that Shokar got sticky when water gets mixed in.



So I do post up "pros" and "cons". No one product is "perfect" and I know this.



I am now testing some products for Top of the Line and I basically hate them. Since they are not for cars but more for motorbikes I will most likely not post up anything about them.



I will seek in the future to give a "pro" and "con" section in my future reviews. PERHAPS what Autopia needs is a "review form" that each reviewer must fill out. It should include how it was applied, what it is, best applied with hand, machine, rotary, the pros, the cons, etc. How does that sound?



This way the reviews can be as objective as possible.



Let me again state that I pay for ALL my orders. I am not being given free samples because I agree to give a positive review. I was given samples of "Waxing Frenzy" and realy disliked the stuff. I was recently sent some degreaser and wheel cleaner by a company and again did not much care for it. So I do frown on alot of products but I would rather hold my tongue than come across as "attacking" a product. I can though see how a positive review can be seen as butt-kissin, so let me again state that only my samples are free. I PAY whole price for everything else.



I appreciate everyones input, value your opinions and lets see if we can take something positive from all of this and build on it.



Thank you,

Anthony
 
Quick note: At the time I tested ShoKar I was under the belief that it was a product set to "go" in the near future. It appears though that from the time I recieved the samples (which just sat in my product box for some time) and finally got around to using them, ShoKar only then became a "possiblity".



This is no fault of Chris or eShine, it's just the way things worked out. I like the product and would like to see it become a buyable product. Time will tell.



I apologize if anyone was upset at this.



Anthony
 
dternst said:
How'd you get the ShoKar?



Scottwax's Shokar Review
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That is why I linked Anthony's review since he pointed out that he was given samples to test. I thought it was pretty obvious I got the samples the same way.



I think I have always been pretty upfront about where I get products to try, whether it was Zaino from an Autopia member (ZaneO) or Clearkote's Yellow Wax from Everett Glass at Clearkote.
 
Corey is right about Shokar, at least for me. I was only asked to give feedback to him. I wasn't even going to review it until I saw Anthony's review and I had only recently learned he even had samples too. I posted a review because my experience was pretty similar. My first impression is that is a very good product. Now the real evaluation starts. How well does the look hold up? How about long term beading and slickness? Those are answers I don't know yet.



The reason many vendors or manufacturers want to get product into the hands of some of us for field testing is because we work on a large variety of vehicles, including exotics. Manufacturers need feedback from actual users. The product may work great on the vehicles they have available to them but they don't have a huge fleet of vehicles to test on.



I suspect, for example that Clearkote never released Blue Moose because there were some hazing issues, especially when used by hand. That was a concern I passed along to Everett when I tested it out. No problem removing the hazing but now I am testing a different compound that I don't have hazing issues with. Carnauba Moose was formulated at least in part because people were using Vanilla Moose and topping it with S100 and obviously, Clearkote wants people to use as many of their products as possible, so he came up with two waxes, one with carnauba and one without. I tested both and I believe some others did too. He came out with the carnauba version. Testing like that is invaluable to smaller companies who just don't have the resources or even time to test their products on a huge variety of cars. I think constructive feedback, both positive and negative can help them bring out a new product that is already field tested and will work well for the vast majority of their customers.
 
I just posted this on Detailcity when I heard that Anthony has been removed from posting there for being a "sales rep" ! I was shocked to see that because from my expereince I know it is completely untrue! Let me first introduce myself; I am David G. the president of optimum Polymer Technologies, Inc. and I know everyone on our payroll. We have never paid Anthony a dime for testing our products or posting reviews about them. In fact we did not even know or contact Anthony to test our products and neither did he know of us initailly. We had had discussions with Top of the Line regarding our product line and they asked us to send samples to their tester/evaluator (Anthony) so we did. This is very common for us since all our distributors require samples to evaluate it before they decide to carry it. However, the only difference was that most other companies do their own testing or use a local shop or dealership not some place a few hundred miles away. At the time we were not even aware of this forum or other forums since our main focus are car manufacturers/dealerships, car washes, and detail shops.



I learned about Anthony's posting of our product on the forums, several weeks after it was posted, by one of our distributors who was a member. This is the first time that i have posted anything here or on detailcity and I will not post anything regarding the product discussions, but this is about something else.



I have enjoyed reading Anthony's thorough testing and comments about our products as well as other products he writes about and also seeing the great work that he does. However,we get calls from many detailers who call and tell us their great and unique experiences with our wax and other products and it is always a pleasure to hear from satisfied customers and that is the only relationship we have had with Anthony.
 
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