Reasonable price for David Fermani to Opti Coat a NEW car?
- Thread starter DetailBurger
- Start date
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
DetailBurger said:
Posting a picture of the paint condition in direct light could help us better determine if it needs 20hrs of correction, regardless if it's new or not. I don't know who worked on it before but there is the possibility they instilled holograms too. Also, is it a brand new car, or is the paint just new? You state both above so it's a little confusing.
Some thing like this or even better would be in direct sun.
DetailBurger
New member
Okay well there seems to be two relevant factors here:
1) The fact that its a brand new car
2) The fact that I was quoted up to 20 hours of work sight-unseen.
I should have started this thread pointing out that its a brand new car. I apologize for not doing that. Its probably the most relevant issue in my reason for asking about the price.
Here are pictures taken of the vehicle a week or two ago. And a picture of the Wheel that needs sealing taken a day ago.
It's current condition.
It's both. I purchased the new car and had it painted to the color I wanted at the time of purchase. Dealer added $ to the tag price for me. Everything is 100% brand new.
It definitely doesn't need 20 hours of correction. But the 20 hours was for both washing, polishing, and Opti-Coating ... not just corrections.
The *only* factor here is that I told the detailer that after a couple washes, I started noticing buffer marks from the detailer. So he is aware he will need to have those taken out, but I know from personal experience that doesn't take very long. The car is in 1,000% perfect condition aside from this.
I guess the real issue is I should not have been quoted sight-unseen. Anyone who gives me a price without seeing the car, and that price happens to be insanely high - makes me feel taken advantage-of. That's why I started this thread. He tells me his price is reasonable. And when im ready to accept a reasonable price, I can contact him. Yet he's never even seen the car and he's quoting me 20 hours of work on it. Something does not seem right about that.
autoaesthetica
New member
I have no idea who the detailer is or what the car's condition is.
However, I will play devils advocate very quickly.
I have quoted a range sight unseen because of 1. the person's distance from me 2. the vehicle and how it was described. Many times as a detailer we see, on a regular basis, cars that need upwards of 400-1000 dollars worth of corrective work rolling right out of the showroom because of poor factory finishing and especially because of dealership "detailers". We have also seen repaints, showcars, custom builds that all require a ton of work even after the "re-do" simply because just because the car is of "X" age doesn't mean its perfect.
Perhaps he was trying to give you something to expect at the very high end of the range?
BTW the sunlight picture of the hood is not revealing at all for defect inspection.
I am only playing devil's advocate here based on my experience, not trying to question you or the detailer.
If you want to be sure and feel better, and get a real feel for the detailer to whether he is burning you or not, set up a consult with him to see the car and inspect it. Problem solved, and that way you can express your concerns to him. I would otherwise make sure it is easy for him to inspect.
Let us know how this goes.
However, I will play devils advocate very quickly.
I have quoted a range sight unseen because of 1. the person's distance from me 2. the vehicle and how it was described. Many times as a detailer we see, on a regular basis, cars that need upwards of 400-1000 dollars worth of corrective work rolling right out of the showroom because of poor factory finishing and especially because of dealership "detailers". We have also seen repaints, showcars, custom builds that all require a ton of work even after the "re-do" simply because just because the car is of "X" age doesn't mean its perfect.
Perhaps he was trying to give you something to expect at the very high end of the range?
BTW the sunlight picture of the hood is not revealing at all for defect inspection.
I am only playing devil's advocate here based on my experience, not trying to question you or the detailer.
If you want to be sure and feel better, and get a real feel for the detailer to whether he is burning you or not, set up a consult with him to see the car and inspect it. Problem solved, and that way you can express your concerns to him. I would otherwise make sure it is easy for him to inspect.
Let us know how this goes.
RaskyR1
Rasky's Auto Detailing
DetailBurger said:
If you are seeing buffer trails from the previous detailer it will likely need at least 2 corrections steps to remove them and finish down perfectly. On a jet black BMW you're probably looking at 8-10hrs just wash, clay and do 2 polishing steps to the paint. Then you will want to add a good 2-3hrs for the additional time to prep and apply the coating, and given how intricate those wheels are 1-2 hrs per wheel is not to far off IMO, considering you have to remove, clean, polish, coat, re-install and torque to factory specs. If there are any deep scratches (RIDS) they may require an additional correction step too.
With that in mind this could easily be $1200+ job for a pro detailer.
If you have some time here are a few good article related to the cost of detailing and the difference between high volume work and high end detailer work.
What is a “Full Detail”? – Detailed Image
The difference a Professional Detailer can make. – Detailed Image
Game-Changing New Detailing Technology Revealed! – Detailed Image
Nth Degree
New member
DetailBurger said:
I'll just reiterate the fact that a new car does not mean perfect. I have seen $250K+ cars in a showroom totally swirled. This sounds like the case as you are already beginning to see holograms after a few washes. It was just covered up, not truly corrected.
It is not uncommon to spend 15-20 hours for a wash, clay, correct, polish... even on a garage queen in good condition. Add to that the time to properly prep for and apply the Opti-coat and the time doesn't seem unreasonable.
As for quoting a price without seeing the car; it is common practice to quote high when insufficient info is provided. Your opinion of "1000% perfect" has little merit to a detailer. That is not because they don't trust you, but rather because too often we hear "My car is in pretty good shape" when in fact it looks like a family of 4 has been living in it and the person who says "It's in really bad shape" often has very high standards and a little dust on the dash and a footprint on the floor mat bothers them.
The only way to clear the expectations is to take the car to the detailer. If you don't like the price, shop around. I'm assuming you did that when you bought the car. You won't hurt his feelings. Just keep in mind what many here have said; you are paying for experience and quality. With Opti-coat you don't want to have it done by someone without the experience or you may find yourself living with the imperfect results or paying A LOT more to have it fixed and done right.
MarcHarris
New member
Hate to say it, but I'm not seeing how this is incredibly crazy of a quote. All things are not equal, and while I'd love to say you always get what you pay for, that's not always the case, and I'm guessing this is the OP's number one issue: will he be getting what he pays for with a price that seems much higher than what he's seen in the past.
I'd like to begin addressing this by needing to point out that $350 is so incredibly low, I wouldn't trust it. The fact that this is a "detail shop" tells me a lot as a professional, mainly that you have absolutely no idea who will perform the work on the vehicle. In some ways, you're paying $350 for a mystery service. Recommended by tuning shops? What the hell do tuning shops know about paint care and proper detailing? You might as well get an Optometrist recommendation from someone that sells sun glasses or a Podiatrist recommendation from your local footlocker: that's not to say they're not able to recommend places, it's just pointing out that you're getting advice from a company / individual that might not know the content they're attempting to judge as well as you might think.
Giving estimates over the phone, over the internet, or any other medium in which you can't truly judge a car makes things tricky. Quote high and people might think you're there to scam extra dollars away. Quote low and you run the risk of shorting yourself, or making a phone call during the detailing to inform an owner that they're be needing to pay you a bunch extra: not a good situation to be in either way. If you're concerned with the amount of time the detailer in question has asked for to complete work on your car, I'd recommend you talk directly to him or her and find out exactly what will be done, and how they concluded the amount of hours they did. A quality detailer should be able to break things down very easily. If they can't, then something is surely up and you are right to be worried.
The sticker price, badge type, and model of your vehicle means NOTHING aside from potential known issues. I don't care how much you paid for a vehicle nor what it means to you: you're paying for my expertise and time. Come up to Michigan and I'll gladly work on your BMW, Maserati, Ferrari, Geo, Daewoo, or Chrylser for the same rate if you choose to hire me. Your badge means nothing. Another owner's badge means nothing. My only issue with exotics and supercars is build quality and funky angles and delicate materials that often means specialized slow-going work. I just finished a 2005 Carrera GT, and while it's rare to have to spend 30+ hours with two guys (60+ man-hours), a delicate carbon fiber finish that's completely covered in DA sanding marks from the factory added a lot to our work load. If the car was a 1-off custom made body on a Geo Metro... the bill would likely have been nearly the same. If anything, you should be worried if someone has sliding scale pricing that is based off your vehicle's retail value. Imagine going to the doctor's office and they charge you extra simply because of your tax bracket or the vehicle you drive. NO company should work this way.
All in all, the price is a little higher than I would have quoted you (most Opti-coat applications have ranged from $800-1500 for us), but I'm not in the same market. If you are in South Florida, it might not be over priced at all. Don't forget you're paying for a service: no a product.
Last but not least, Opti-Coat is certainly the way to go for durability in my experience: far better than CQuartz.
I'd like to begin addressing this by needing to point out that $350 is so incredibly low, I wouldn't trust it. The fact that this is a "detail shop" tells me a lot as a professional, mainly that you have absolutely no idea who will perform the work on the vehicle. In some ways, you're paying $350 for a mystery service. Recommended by tuning shops? What the hell do tuning shops know about paint care and proper detailing? You might as well get an Optometrist recommendation from someone that sells sun glasses or a Podiatrist recommendation from your local footlocker: that's not to say they're not able to recommend places, it's just pointing out that you're getting advice from a company / individual that might not know the content they're attempting to judge as well as you might think.
Giving estimates over the phone, over the internet, or any other medium in which you can't truly judge a car makes things tricky. Quote high and people might think you're there to scam extra dollars away. Quote low and you run the risk of shorting yourself, or making a phone call during the detailing to inform an owner that they're be needing to pay you a bunch extra: not a good situation to be in either way. If you're concerned with the amount of time the detailer in question has asked for to complete work on your car, I'd recommend you talk directly to him or her and find out exactly what will be done, and how they concluded the amount of hours they did. A quality detailer should be able to break things down very easily. If they can't, then something is surely up and you are right to be worried.
The sticker price, badge type, and model of your vehicle means NOTHING aside from potential known issues. I don't care how much you paid for a vehicle nor what it means to you: you're paying for my expertise and time. Come up to Michigan and I'll gladly work on your BMW, Maserati, Ferrari, Geo, Daewoo, or Chrylser for the same rate if you choose to hire me. Your badge means nothing. Another owner's badge means nothing. My only issue with exotics and supercars is build quality and funky angles and delicate materials that often means specialized slow-going work. I just finished a 2005 Carrera GT, and while it's rare to have to spend 30+ hours with two guys (60+ man-hours), a delicate carbon fiber finish that's completely covered in DA sanding marks from the factory added a lot to our work load. If the car was a 1-off custom made body on a Geo Metro... the bill would likely have been nearly the same. If anything, you should be worried if someone has sliding scale pricing that is based off your vehicle's retail value. Imagine going to the doctor's office and they charge you extra simply because of your tax bracket or the vehicle you drive. NO company should work this way.
All in all, the price is a little higher than I would have quoted you (most Opti-coat applications have ranged from $800-1500 for us), but I'm not in the same market. If you are in South Florida, it might not be over priced at all. Don't forget you're paying for a service: no a product.
Last but not least, Opti-Coat is certainly the way to go for durability in my experience: far better than CQuartz.
Barry Theal
New member
MarcHarris said:
Incredible post Marc!
If I could justify things a little more.
I think the fact of the matter here is money. There is a price for everything. Depending on who you get your services from. Look at it this way, you just made an investment of $75,000. I can buy a nice small house in my area for that, but in Florida is an everyday car. Still 75 grand is 75 grand. Opticoat is a permant coating and as such would be a great investment for you. The biggest price factor here is the labor charge. Hours spent. Do you really want some one to rush the job or take there time and do it right? Also you have to look at it this way. $1700 is only 2.2% of the total investment. That together seems to be a rather small percent to make the car perfect and protected. For what it's worth $1700 for a detail is a rather small price to pay depending on who you talk to. Case in point below.
In case your wondering that for a little more work, but just a point of what some are willing to pay.
Deep Gloss Auto Salon
New member
MarcHarris said:
100%on the money Marc.
As auto aesthetica said. If I have to quote a car without seeing it I will ALWAYS quote on the high side. Every owner says " I want it perfect and right now the paint isn't too bad to start off with" yet, on arrival and my 1st chance to see the paint it almost always is in terrible shape.
autoaesthetica
New member
Barry made the point I make to a lot of customers and the relationship between them. A given percentage of total price of the vehicle is completely reasonable to its care.
Typically specialist car owners are familiar with the mechanical issues associated with upkeep of a vehicle and as such, mass produced cars unmolested before delivery typically require a less work than a make like AM or Ferrari. Typically if its a mechanical issue, it is then a precision issue as well and most supercar owners don't bat an eyelash at a price to repair something mechanical especially as they know dealerships charge what they charge for a reason.. As such our trade is one that DOES require precision and absolutely requires a level of experience and continuing learning to stay sharp and provide excellence.
Those who been around know require major refinishing on exotics(love the flaky black unside paint as well), ironically if they are untouched.. ends up being a percentage of investment to repair then further to maintain the finish of the vehicles.
I think 1700 dollars is alot for the non-enthusiast who just drives a car but as a detailer I would not hesitate to quote it or give an idea of a 4 figure detail if I hadn't seen the car based on what my previous experience tells me of a Jet Black BMW in the past.. If it requires that work and the detailer has proven that his results justify that price..then thats what the quote will be. If the car is truly nearly perfect, then any detailer worth his weight in car shampoo will adjust it accordingly.
...which again is why you can't fault him for sight unseen quotes. The easiest way to eliminate this hassle is to simply schedule an inspection with him/her.
Typically specialist car owners are familiar with the mechanical issues associated with upkeep of a vehicle and as such, mass produced cars unmolested before delivery typically require a less work than a make like AM or Ferrari. Typically if its a mechanical issue, it is then a precision issue as well and most supercar owners don't bat an eyelash at a price to repair something mechanical especially as they know dealerships charge what they charge for a reason.. As such our trade is one that DOES require precision and absolutely requires a level of experience and continuing learning to stay sharp and provide excellence.
Those who been around know require major refinishing on exotics(love the flaky black unside paint as well), ironically if they are untouched.. ends up being a percentage of investment to repair then further to maintain the finish of the vehicles.
I think 1700 dollars is alot for the non-enthusiast who just drives a car but as a detailer I would not hesitate to quote it or give an idea of a 4 figure detail if I hadn't seen the car based on what my previous experience tells me of a Jet Black BMW in the past.. If it requires that work and the detailer has proven that his results justify that price..then thats what the quote will be. If the car is truly nearly perfect, then any detailer worth his weight in car shampoo will adjust it accordingly.
...which again is why you can't fault him for sight unseen quotes. The easiest way to eliminate this hassle is to simply schedule an inspection with him/her.
autoconcierge
New member
DetailBurger said:
"Captain contradiction" please come to the lobby...................Post # 1 by YOU mentions the service you used in San Diego so not posting anyones name ..................well that went out the window.
Me thinks you have utilized "Hackage" and should keep on your present speed and course as even though you sprung for "Full polish HRE's" which go for exactly $1,750.00 a WHEEL, either you are tapped out of scrill or "Pop" said ..... "No more Junior"..................
MarcHarris
New member
Deep Gloss Auto Salon said:
I completely agree with your scenario Jason. I've always found it odd the type of people that consider their paint in "not too bad" shape usually have JACKED finishes while those that say "it really needs A LOT of love" usually have nicely maintained vehicles.
GO Lions!
GO Tigers!
JohnKleven
New member
$60/hr. seems reasonable to me.
C. Charles Hahn
CCH Auto Appearance, LLC
Barry Theal said:
:werd:
Not only is it an investment of $75K, it's an investment of $75K in a depreciating asset, and you have already accelerated that depreciation by having a non-factory COLOR CHANGE paint job put on the car straight off the showroom floor. Something to consider:
How long do you plan on keeping this vehicle? Go out there and do some research -- figure out how much the "normal" depreciation rate for the vehicle is, and be sure to pay attention to how much of a role the vehicle's cosmetic condition plays in that depreciation. How much less is a vehicle in "good" or "average" condition worth when compared to an "excellent" one? Next, decrease the value of the vehicle a bit further to take into account the aftermarket paintwork. How much money did you lose over your period of ownership?
I'm willing to bet spending $1700 now on a permanent coating which will slow "normal wear" to a near halt if given proper aftercare is going to pay you back in a big way when it comes time to sell or trade.
MarcHarris said:
GO Green! :nana:
Thomas Dekany
New member
OK, I haven't read most replies, but a few.
My take - And forgive me if I don't understand it totally...
Your brand new car received a new paint job? You went to Jet Black?
If so, did the SD detailer detail the original color or this color? Because there is a HUGE difference between the 2.
So, my take is: David IS worth his asking price. However, if you like perfection? Save your money on excessive polishing as the paint will look like **** in no time. I don't care what you think of your paint condition right now, I can tell you unseen that it isn't perfect. Far from it. It may "appear" so , but once you strip it the true condition will blow you away. Right now it is just covered up.
That is my take, and I hope that I didn't come across too harsh.
As far as the other shop doing a full detail for $350? In and out? I don't think that shop is on the same skill level as David.
Now, I'd like to know what John Kleven charges for the same service as he is top notch.
My take - And forgive me if I don't understand it totally...
Your brand new car received a new paint job? You went to Jet Black?
If so, did the SD detailer detail the original color or this color? Because there is a HUGE difference between the 2.
So, my take is: David IS worth his asking price. However, if you like perfection? Save your money on excessive polishing as the paint will look like **** in no time. I don't care what you think of your paint condition right now, I can tell you unseen that it isn't perfect. Far from it. It may "appear" so , but once you strip it the true condition will blow you away. Right now it is just covered up.
That is my take, and I hope that I didn't come across too harsh.
As far as the other shop doing a full detail for $350? In and out? I don't think that shop is on the same skill level as David.
Now, I'd like to know what John Kleven charges for the same service as he is top notch.
Thomas Dekany
New member
What a show off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
barry theal said:
in case your wondering that for a little more work, but just a point of what some are willing to pay.
mikenap
New member
tdekany said:What a show off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, I wish Barry would hurry up and cash it. It's keeping me from balancing my checkbook.:wof:
DetailBurger
New member
Okay well ...
1) Everyone who knows Dave and has responded here, thanks for your input, i know he's a great guy, but I still dont think my car needs TWENTY HOURS of cleaning.
2) The couple guys who had nothing of value to say other than retarded flaming coments, will be disregarded.
3) More than a couple guys plainly said $1700 to clean and opticoat a brand new car is ridiculous.
4) The majority of you have said that 1,700 to opticoat and polish a brand new car is reasonable.
After this thread I am sure Dave wont work on my car anyways. He's probably pissed. Mostly because most of you have responded like I was an idiot for asking. I appreciate the one person who spoke up and stated I asked a reasonable question. But im sure I've burned this bridge with Dave.
When I go to the home page of this web site and there's an Alfa 8C that looks like an utter disaster, and it says underneath, something like "WHOPPING 18 HOUR DETAIL!" ....
Yet my brand new BMW needs 20 hours.... ?
My brain still isn't registering why.
Marc your post was very helpful and for the most part on-point. Please keep in mind the shop that did the work for $350 - - - the quality of their work is not up for questioning. I saw the results. Detail Works is great. Maybe you guys should call him and tell him to quadruple his prices.
I appreciate most of the responses here. What I have concluded is this:
I should have had Dave view the vehicle before giving me his price quote. Because now, even without having seen a single photo of the car, he has told me to "Take it or leave it" with a 20 hour timeline. So I guess I screwed myself. Live and Learn.
1) Everyone who knows Dave and has responded here, thanks for your input, i know he's a great guy, but I still dont think my car needs TWENTY HOURS of cleaning.
2) The couple guys who had nothing of value to say other than retarded flaming coments, will be disregarded.
3) More than a couple guys plainly said $1700 to clean and opticoat a brand new car is ridiculous.
4) The majority of you have said that 1,700 to opticoat and polish a brand new car is reasonable.
After this thread I am sure Dave wont work on my car anyways. He's probably pissed. Mostly because most of you have responded like I was an idiot for asking. I appreciate the one person who spoke up and stated I asked a reasonable question. But im sure I've burned this bridge with Dave.
When I go to the home page of this web site and there's an Alfa 8C that looks like an utter disaster, and it says underneath, something like "WHOPPING 18 HOUR DETAIL!" ....
Yet my brand new BMW needs 20 hours.... ?
My brain still isn't registering why.
Marc your post was very helpful and for the most part on-point. Please keep in mind the shop that did the work for $350 - - - the quality of their work is not up for questioning. I saw the results. Detail Works is great. Maybe you guys should call him and tell him to quadruple his prices.
I appreciate most of the responses here. What I have concluded is this:
I should have had Dave view the vehicle before giving me his price quote. Because now, even without having seen a single photo of the car, he has told me to "Take it or leave it" with a 20 hour timeline. So I guess I screwed myself. Live and Learn.
smokinfastlegen
New member
DetailBurger said:
The majority of people here are saying your paint is indeed not perfect. You want to see how nasty your paint really is? Find someone to let you use their hose and give it a good washing with a strong mix of either citrus wash and gloss or Dawn soap. And wash it a few times. If the trails are just starting to show themselves, im sure more will appear. And just because your paint was brand new doesnt mean the body shop who painted it knows how to detail paint.
And that alfa you saw on the front page probably cost the owner more than what you were quoted because that is Paul Dalton's work, aka this: World's Most Expensive Car Wash - YouTube
The video mentions his work can cost up to £5000, aka $7800 US.
And after reading the first line of his article on our forum, where it says "£5k 50 hour detail on his Carrera CGT" thats £1000 every 10 hours of work. or $1500 for only 10 hours.