Reality test.

I

imported_WhyteWizard

New member
Years ago, I was a salesman for Klasse and I made a call on a local detailing shop. I asked the owner if I could show him the product and he said, "Nope, not interested." I asked why and he told me he'd been detailing for twenty years, had twenty years of experience and knew what he was doing. So, I asked, how long he'd been using the same products and he told me, nineteen years.



I thought to myself, "One year of experience, nineteen years of repetition."



Now, I've been detailing for over thirty years and every day, I get up and ask, "How can I get a better result, faster, safer and easier." Interiors aren't a big issue for me since most my clients take excellent care of their cars, but still, I keep tweaking my methods even there. When it comes to paint correction, I'm constantly experimenting with different products and pads. I do "A" "B" comparisons since at this point, I can get a very good result with just about anything so the difference is better seen side by side.



At the end of the day though, I've found that the high speed polisher/rotary is still my go to machine for scratch removal. The way I work, keeping the product in the pad, moving the residue off the paint as I go so I can work and inspect at the same time, then following up with the forced rotation and elliptical movement Makita BO6040 to remove the swirl marks is still the fastest most sure process, even though pads and polishes occasionally change.



There's a lot of discussion here about correction with various random orbital machines and since I don't want to be that guy with all the years of just repetition, if one or more of you who are expert in that technique would like to do the experiment where we do "A" "B" comparisons I think it would be in all our best interests.



Awhile back, Eric came over to Crevier Classics and we ran his machine against the BO6040, his machine did leave a better finish. Since then, I've modified my use of the Makita so I can get speed and the better finish. I learned something that day and expect there's always something more out there.



I live in Orange County but work as far north as Thousand Oaks, so, if anyone is interested in getting together post a reply and IM your contact info.



Robert
 
IMO, there are a lot of people in this world, so hell bent on being right, that they refuse to admit to themselves that there could be something better out there.



I also agree with you on the rotary, nothing CUTS faster. DAs do finish out better for the most part (and with much less skill). Though I'd love for someone to prove us wrong with a mega power DA, though I think there are big challenges as far as pads go there.
 
Dan said:
IMO, there are a lot of people in this world, so hell bent on being right, that they refuse to admit to themselves that there could be something better out there.



I also agree with you on the rotary, nothing CUTS faster. DAs do finish out better for the most part (and with much less skill). Though I'd love for someone to prove us wrong with a mega power DA, though I think there are big challenges as far as pads go there.
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Hey Dan,





For me, the issue isn't being right or wrong, it's about being good value for money and about answering the daily question. "How can I get a better result, faster and easier." The faster I can work, the better job I can do, the better value I am to my client and myself.



I recently picked up a couple of clients who have a lot of cars and a lot of experience with other detailers. They're frankly shocked at how much I get done in the time I'm there, but I'm charging them a day rate so I don't mess around. I've also pointed out to them that I'm not going to waste their money and my time doing things that won't matter after a week - things like taking the wheels off, removing the lenses, getting the door jams perfect for example. I spend their money and my time on the heavy lifting part of the detail, I'm not doing concourse work, I'm doing good value for money. At the same time, the paint is close to flawless - I don't cut out every deep scratch, I leave some room for reality -the windows are flawless, there's no wax or compound left anywhere and no dust. I try to leave the car crime scene clean - no evidence I was there except a great looking car.



If anyone can show me anything that will help me in any way do a better job I'll be grateful for the lesson. If at the same time I can help someone else I like that too. I'd like to think we, as professionals, can share information and be cooperative in the interest of making our own business' and the detailing business in general more respected and appreciated.





All the best,

Robert
 
There is a thin line between trying to keep up to date on products and processes and being a fool buying into every single "newest and seemingly greatest". As they say, a fool and his money are soon to part.
 
Jean-Claude said:
There is a thin line between trying to keep up to date on products and processes and being a fool buying into every single "newest and seemingly greatest". As they say, a fool and his money are soon to part.
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The line isn't that fine if you have enough experience to see what has real potential. I bet it didn't take much to get you adopt the clay bar and microfiber.







Robert
 
Jean-Claude said:
There is a thin line between trying to keep up to date on products and processes and being a fool buying into every single "newest and seemingly greatest". As they say, a fool and his money are soon to part.
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Too true, all you need to do is head on over to Autogeek to see that in action. People running up debt to collect waxes...
 
Dan said:
Too true, all you need to do is head on over to Autogeek to see that in action. People running up debt to collect waxes...
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Or look at posts about selling new machines, but that's not the point of my original post. I'm offering a chance for anyone who's expert in the use of random orbitals for paint correction to do a comparison of techniques. Again, I, repeat, I, learned something from the last time and would like to see if things have changed since then.



It takes a lot of experience and good scientific method - including long term observation and A to B comparisons - to know if some new product or technique is really valuable. Collaboration and reviewing each other's work should be beneficial to everyone and should keep people from wasting their money. So, again - and back to the original point of this thread - if anyone wants to do the experiment in a spirit of collaboration I'm willing to provide the venue. I'm also willing to share or not share the results depending on the consent of all concerned.



Robert
 
WhyteWizard said:
The line isn't that fine if you have enough experience to see what has real potential. I bet it didn't take much to get you adopt the clay bar and microfiber.







Robert
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There are no absolutes and it's not always that simple. I consider myself to be incredibly prudent and I am critical about every product review but that doesn't mean I can't have an incorrect perception of a product or process. I believe it's the ability to continually analize, or in cases reassess, that will provide the best processes.



The guy in you op relied on his experience or lack thereof to rule out your product. He was not willing to think critically of his own process enough to open up to the reward of improvement.
 
It looks like I've found someone who wants to do a side by side with the various machines. It'll happen next Saturday if all goes well and should be interesting. Not my venue so I can't invite.



Robert
 
Who pays for wheels to be removed and door jambs cleaned/polished??, anyway Rotary defect removal is the fastest way to level paint no doubt but it also removes alot more material and will heat the paint up quite a bit. If I have enough material on big panels I will still utilize my DeWalt, now speed of correction is relative as with a Rupes 21 and the right compounds/polishes serious defect removal is not only possible but without the penalty of scouring and or deep holograms.



In addition unless you have specific rotary experience on how to roll over panels with a sharp crease or body lines there can be trouble. Me thinks when you utilize the 21(If the washer mod is there of course) you will start giggling to yourself as I remember a past convo we had on the phone where you just could not believe a DA polisher could remove defects(A couple of years ago) but then again YMMV.



Have fun.................
 
Auto Concierge said:
Who pays for wheels to be removed and door jambs cleaned/polished??..
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Huh, given your focus on exotics (as per your signature line) I'm really surprised your customers don't expect that.



Sorry to threadjack, just caught my eye and everybody here knows what a nut I am about such stuff :o



Back on-topic, I wish there was a Cyclo to include in that polishe comparison; I'd like to know how its finishing ability compares to the others.
 
Accumulator said:
Huh, given your focus on exotics (as per your signature line) I'm really surprised your customers don't expect that.



Sorry to threadjack, just caught my eye and everybody here knows what a nut I am about such stuff :o



Back on-topic, I wish there was a Cyclo to include in that polishe comparison; I'd like to know how its finishing ability compares to the others.
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Re-read the first post and the clue to my sarcasm is evident...........: :tongue2:
 
Auto Concierge said:
Re-read the first post and the clue to my sarcasm is evident...........: :tongue2:
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Did you ever hear from Nau about the Japanese machines?



When we talked about using the random orbital for defect removal you suggested a particular kind of pad - which I purchased on your recommendation. Are you still using it.



Looking at the throw of the Rupes 21 and opms, it looks to generate about 1100 inches per second of movement between the pad and the paint. The Makita does about 1250 at the edge. The washer mod on the Rupes lets that machine's pad float free - if my understanding is correct - and will let the amount of energy removed from the system by the anti-spin feature be applied to the paint and should make that machine somewhat more effective. Still, if the anti spin is removing much, it must get very hot during operation and put a greater load on the motor since it must be creating friction and therefore heat. So, since I've yet to see for myself a random orbital machine that can't be stopped from spinning with very little effort even at full speed I'm looking forward to seeing the Rupes in action.



I have a bias toward what works, particularly what works for me. That doesn't mean other people can't or won't get excellent results doing things differently. As you said, YMMV.



Robert
 
Auto Concierge said:
It was a "No from Nau"....... or a no for now................. have not heard from this guy as he must be busy.
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That's too bad but they did get hit with Sandy about that time and he was very busy.



I edited my last post with some questions. If you want to just talk, give me a call.



Robert
 
Auto Concierge said:
Re-read ..[post #3].. and the clue to my sarcasm is evident...........: :tongue2:
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Oops, oh, yeah...glossed over that, sorry... :o



To be fair, I still think that kind of work needs doing (if only to remove accumulated soiling that can retain moisture), but if somebody's customers are happy I guess that's what matters :nixweiss
 
The rotary is certainly great at removing tree branch scratches etc but it doesn't always correct as quick as a DA, especially the Dynabrade 61375, 84 and 85

That guy you talked about whyte wizard - I've met people like him with 20 years experience and most have closed minds



I have a saying that may of been said by many people before I came along - if you stand still you go backwards

Always have an open mind and embrace change, I do for sure



The only RO machine that can't be stopped from spinning would be the Dynabrade 61384(85 in my case) and the 61375. The 75 is an absolute weapon of an RO with the 19mm throw attached to a 1500watt Rotary with 600 to 3000 rpm on the speed dial.



My experience tells me that a rotary isn't always going to correct as fast as an RO or DA, some paints just don't like the action of the rotary whilst others love it.



So that's why I do 98% of my correction with an RO or DA or the Dynabrade 85 and keep the rotary for orange peel reduction, Jewelling and deep scratches (sanding being the last resort)



Retexturising the paint which I love to do, removing some peel, all or most of the paint prep marks and dry paint texture is done best with the Dynabrade heads. They annihilate it all with wool ,surbuf, leather and especially new rayon pads fresh out the box



I love to conduct testing but don't buy into too many products that come out. The industry is saturated with crap products with outdated formula's but a select few great ones do emerge from time to time.
 
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