Protection - Carnuba Wax Vs. Sealant

B

billrouleau

New member
I thought I would start this thread in order to list the FACTS known about the differences in PROTECTION offered by a carnuba wax versus any popular sealant, in hopes of helping any searches on this subject. Please add to whatever I put here, as I am no expert by any means. I do believe that carnuba waxes offer some sort of minimal protection, but not as much as a sealant would.



CARNUBA WAX:



Max temp. - ~170F

Minimal UV protection





SEALANT:



Max temp. - >400F

Good UV blocking ability





Does that sound right?



Also, longer-term, is the UV protection of a sealant going to help the paint versus using ONLY a carnuba wax? I thought today's paint technologies were much more advanced, so the use of either would be fine (ie. today's paints will not show noticeably more UV damage over say 6-8 years with use of either).
 
CMA provided some great info about the difference between a sealant and a carnauba. Your info is pretty close. Basicly there is no durability comparison. A sealant is designed that it will last longer than a carnauba thus it protects longer. I don't know of any carnaubas that were designed to really protect your car for long periods of time. Wax is more of an appearance thing and less of a protection thing these days. Before the day of sealants waxing you car was the only way to protect it. Now there are so many other options that waxing has become less necessary for protection in the long run.
 
Removing durability from the equation, does a carnuba wax provide roughly the same protection of a sealant? Ie. the 1st month of a carnuba vs. the 1st month of a sealant. I"m the type that would wax his car VERY often (the benz), and I miss the carnuba look. I really don't want to have to base with a sealant and then top either...I'd much rather put down a nice glaze and then top with S100 to really bring out that "pool black" look.



I guess my worry is that if I switch to carnuba/glaze only, my car will be missing out on protection and a few years down the road will suffer as a result. I do plan on keeping the CLK for 8-10 years.
 
I think you would be surpised at the difference. The look is different, but not in a negative way. Just different. As a matter of fact, different carnaubas even produce different looks.



As far as durability, if you are like you say, which is waxing very often (at least once a month, and possibly more) then I would say it really makes no difference what you use, unless you live in Phoenix, Las Vegas, or Miami.
 
500amg said:
Removing durability from the equation, does a carnuba wax provide roughly the same protection of a sealant? Ie. the 1st month of a carnuba vs. the 1st month of a sealant. I"m the type that would wax his car VERY often (the benz), and I miss the carnuba look. I really don't want to have to base with a sealant and then top either...I'd much rather put down a nice glaze and then top with S100 to really bring out that "pool black" look.

Click to expand...



Sounds like you'll be more than fine with the glaze+wax combo due to your frequent waxing...



I wouldn't worry about "down the road" thing if you continue your regimen...



Sounds very much like Carguy's sentiments on sealants... If you wax very often, durability aint an issue...



Hehe, if I had an AMG, I'd wax often too... :)
 
I love to and very often wax my cars. I went the sealant route once and also felt a lack of richness I desire in my paint's appearance. But I loved the added protection ( UV and increase presence) of the sealant. After experimenting I come up with a solution to my needs and appearance desires. I now glaze with P21S GEPC add several coats of Blackfire 2 ( carnuaba appearing sealant) and top with P21S. Since I rarely drive one of the cars (Z28) the BF2 may be redundant but it is such a wonderful product to work with. On my LS400 this regimen works great. It maintains the shine and protection between washes even if the carnuaba has worn off. I now sleep better at night knowing that I have achieved the appearance that I love and also know I am protected well with a sealant base. Here is a picture of a 9 y.o black Lexus LS400 with the first 8 years only protected with glaze and carnuaba (3M's IHG,Meg Gold Class and Meg #26). The last year with IHG, Blackfire and topped with various carnuaba ( pix has P21S topper). As you can see the richness of carnuaba is not diminished by a sealant base. Since this is the only personal car that is driven I rarely go beyond 3 weeks without waxing.If I had known what you may have learned by Autopia (E-book, MF's, washing techniques, different products, etc.) 9 years ago I believe she would look even better.:wavey
 
A carnuba offers no UV light protection. For indoor showcars or garaged weekenders this may be ok, but for outdoor daily drivers this simply won't cut it. Remember plants need UV light to live, if carnuba filtered UV light, the tree it comes from would cease to exsist.......



A good example of what UV light can do to your paint is to look at a car that contains both fiberglass and steel body panels.....after time these panels fade differerently and the difference in color is substantial. This can be seen on the front end of F-body's (Z-28, trans am,etc) in particular.



Carnuba toppers should be used with caution. There are not many low solvent non abrasive systems out there that will not start to attack the polymer layer in the sealant. If you love that wet, oily carnuba look......my advice is to lay down a base of sealant, and then use a quick detailer that has that look to it. if you apply it 1-2 times a week the "look" should last.........



Hope this helps....



DK
 
DETAILKING said:
A carnuba offers no UV light protection. For indoor showcars or garaged weekenders this may be ok, but for outdoor daily drivers this simply won't cut it. Remember plants need UV light to live, if carnuba filtered UV light, the tree it comes from would cease to exsist.......
Click to expand...



Isn't that a bit simplistic? It isn't just tree wax you are wiping on the car. Is there any reason UV inhibitors can't be added to carnauba-based wax?



I would swear that Simoniz wax saved my paint on my old 1987 Chevy Celebrity. When I got it, there were a few little areas where the clear was starting to turn white. I used to wax that car about once a month. I had it for about 3 years and the clear never got worse. I gave it to my brother when I got rid of it, and within a year the clearcoat had gotten substantially worse. It was white and cracking all over the place. He never waxed the car while he had it. I really think it was the waxing that kept the damage from progressing while I had it (not to say there is anything special about Simoniz).



Of course, this is just an example and not very scientific at all, but is there any real reason that natural wax protectants can't have UV inhibitors just like polymers or rubber/vinyl protectants do?
 
Hi DetailKing,

I am a bit confused. Are you saying that the same UV additives that are used in items like 303, Poorboy's Natural Look, Zaino, Klasse,etc can not be also added to a carnuaba formulation? Also a little botany. The same organelles which partially protect our skin ( myelanocytes) by producting UV absorbing pigments are present in plants. So true UV additives are not naturally present in plants any more so than synthetic polymer sealants. That aside I see no reason why a UV additive can or is not included in some carnuaba formulations.

The practice of topping Klasse, Blackfire and Platium sealant with a carnauba is advocated by their manufacturers. Are they lying are mis-informed about their own products? Crosslinking problems?

These questions are just for discussion and edification not intended as a flame.

I understand your point about plastic/ moulded panels and metal painted panel having a quite different reaction to UV rads but these change are also multifactorial ( paint used, primer***, friction exposure ( front of f-bodies, vettes,etc more effected than the rear flexible panel(bumper... rarely faded)).

As I mentioned I use the sealant base protection for added insurance but as the LS400 points out it is not manditory with meticulous and frequent detailing.:wavey
 
CMA lists UV protection in their comparison charts for various waxes and sealants. Some of what they have listed is shown below.



Excellent UV protection

->Blackfire



Very good UV protection

->Klasse AIO

->Klasse HGSG



Above average

->3M Show Car Paste Wax



Average

->P21S

->Meg's #26

->Pinnacle Paste Glaze



Below Average

->Pinnacle Souveran



While their findings are interesting, it would be more interesting to me as to how they determined those ratings. Could you try some of these products on glass or plastic and have the UV protection tested at an Optometrist's? When I ordered some special sun glasses, the shop was able to actually check the filtering ability of them for two types of UV rays. Seems like they could do the same for a wax or sealant coating.



Charles
 
The way I understand it is that polymers (siloxanes, methacrylates, etc) resist UV degradation very well and the reason for that is because it doesn't absorb much of it...hence, it is not damaged by its energy.



Unless specific UV blockers are added into the product (Ultraguard in Z?) and replenished regularly, my guess (& and I emphasize the word guess) is that neither polymers nor waxes provide direct UV protection for your car's finish.



They do however, protect in the sense that they act as a sacrificial layer to the outer UV-blocking portions of your clear-coat.



Once again, I'm just guessing.





EDIT:: Btw, I just read over the CMA description of Blackfire and they never specifically say their protectant will provide UV protection for your paint finish. It only emphasizes how the product itself is resistant to UV rays......which I agree with.
 
Intermezzo said:


EDIT:: Btw, I just read over the CMA description of Blackfire and they never specifically say their protectant will provide UV protection for your paint finish. It only emphasizes how the product itself is resistant to UV rays......which I agree with.
Click to expand...

My post was in reference to the chart they have at the end of their product description. It gives their assesment of various areas of performance. One of those is titled "UV Protection". Those tables are where the ratings information I posted came from. The Blackfire table has "Excellent" in the UV Protection box.



Charles
 
CharlesW said:
While their findings are interesting, it would be more interesting to me as to how they determined those ratings. Could you try some of these products on glass or plastic and have the UV protection tested at an Optometrist's? When I ordered some special sun glasses, the shop was able to actually check the filtering ability of them for two types of UV rays. Seems like they could do the same for a wax or sealant coating.



Charles
Click to expand...
Now that would be a really cool experiment for someone with a boatload of waxes and an optometerist friend! :cool:



I imagine you could do it with a bunch of really clean (or new) microscope slides. Set one bare one as the baseline, then measure the rest.
 
CharlesW said:
My post was in reference to the chart they have at the end of their product description. It gives their assesment of various areas of performance. One of those is titled "UV Protection". Those tables are where the ratings information I posted came from. The Blackfire table has "Excellent" in the UV Protection box.

Charles
Click to expand...



Oh yeah, I noticed that too after I made my little addition and you're absolutely right! I was referring more to the "difference between sealant and carnauba" link, but thanks for pointing that out! :up
 
Ahhhhhhhh, this is what I was hoping would come out of this thread: some really good information and a great discussion.



blkZ28Conv: What you are doing with your cars is exactly what I am now seriously considering on my MB. Do you think the GEPC is a better base than Blackfire's own polish?



The observation on the UV protection applying to the actual product versus the car's paint is interesting. Is this just a marketing ploy by manufacturers that splits hairs with labeling semantics? Do the products actually protect the car's finish from UV rays like sunblock does for skin, or are the descriptions of the products refering to the product's ability to withstand breaking down to UV rays?



Finally, does anyone have any information/personal experience on longer-term usage of a carnuba wax/sealant with regards to UV damage? If a carnuba wax could provide adequate protection (assuming you wax every 2-3 weeks), then the only advantage to a polymer would be the added durability and higher melting point.



*Note: I am just refering to protection ability and NOT APPEARANCE FACTORS :)
 
Oh yeah I almost forgot!



CharlesW: That UV test would be amazing. While I would not be able to perform it, I would love to see the results! :up



Aurora40: That is quite an interesting experience you had. Would it be safe to say the wax did help against UV damage (obviously your opinon and not scientific proof ;) )



Do we know for sure that manufacturers use UV inhibiting additives in carnuba waxes?
 
I posed this question to a chemist (not Ron Ketcham) from a company specializing in the formulation and manufacture of auto aftermarket repair and appearance products (waxes, paints, fillers, coatings, catalysts, etc.). This was the response I got:



"Some companies put UV protectors in their waxes so that they can make a UV claim. My company did numerous tests that showed that you could not get enough UV absorbing chemical in a wax product that would provide beneficial protection at the extremely thin layer that is left on the vehicle. Essentially, the clear coat or base color coat paint must contain the UV protection. No wax that you apply will provide any amount of "REAL BENEFICIAL" protection. "



This is pretty much in line with what I've been told by others in the industry. Not sure if this also applies to sealants. My guess would be that it's pretty much the same story though.



I just started doing my own little "unscientific" test as to how well certain products like P21S Carnauaba, Z-5, & Blackfire protect against UV rays by measuring the rate at which they help slow down the fading of red construction paper. Results and pics will be posted as soon as I'm done.
 
Very interesting info Intermezzo. It makes sense. I look forward to the results of your test. One thing though, I wonder how different sunblock for skin is from UV inhibitors used in waxes/sealants. Presumably sunblock works for human skin...I wonder why true UV protection couldn't be provided for a car (well I guess it already is in the clearcoat) :nixweiss
 
DETAILKING said:
A carnuba offers no UV light protection. For indoor showcars or garaged weekenders this may be ok, but for outdoor daily drivers this simply won't cut it. Remember plants need UV light to live, if carnuba filtered UV light, the tree it comes from would cease to exsist....DK
Click to expand...



Whoa... exact statement from http://216.167.44.22/fusetalk/messageview.cfm?catid=2&threadid=55



"So I see a few new polishes/wax's that say that they have teflon in them and I won't need to wax my truck again for 5 yeaers. Is this stuff for real? If so, which is the best one?



The teflon in a paint sealant has one purpose, that is to make the part of the sealant that adheres to the clearcoat easier to remove. The protection comes from the synthetic matter in the sealant. I would not suggest using a pure carnuba for long term protection, for the simple fact that carnuba comes from a tree in Brazil which needs UV to survive. Therfore it will not protect against the harsh UV rays your vehicle is exposed to every day."



I don't buy this at all... Or are you just kidding? Since when are waxes living organisms?
 
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