Pressure Washer

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diggertoo

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This may have been discussed but just looking for thoughts to put this to rest. It's not true is it?



This is from waxdepot.com FAQ.



"I see products advertised with acrylics/polymers in them. How are they different?

Acrylics and polymers are essentially plastics. Plastics are a man-made substance made from petroleum. Plastics have their place, but we do not feel it should be on your car's finish.



When you use a natural carnauba wax, the paint is allowed to expand and contract naturally; the carnauba does not impede this process. However, plastics are a molecular "chain" that interlocks with the molecular "chains" next to them, so that no individual "chain" can move without all of the "chains" moving together. Because of this, plastics do not allow the paint to naturally expand and contract and can cause premature paint failure. This failure will show up in the form of cracked paint, sometimes also called "spider webbing" because of its look.



One last problem with plastic-based products is that they layer and build. With a carnauba-based product the wax does not build up in layers; each new application leaves a constant amount of wax on the car, regardless of how many times you apply it. With plastics, one layer builds on top of the existing layer; this can cause discoloration or yellowing of your car's finish. To prevent this, most manufacturers of plastic-based coatings also sell a "cleaning" kit to remove the old coating. This "cleaning" kit is usually nothing more than a polish or solvent to remove the old plastic before applying more plastic.



We recommend using only natural carnauba-based products on your car's finish to give it great protection and keep a great shine."



By the way I'm about 95% sure I'm going with the Klasse twins for my F250.



Thanks for any input.
 
polymers/plastics flex and will move with your paint. If anything carnuba won't. Sure it's a thin layer, but carnuba is hard and brittle Polymers are not, they have slight flexing and elastic properties.
 
Inaccurate wives' tales. The Wax Depot started out as an online outlet for THE WAX SHOP products and their selling story was carnauba so, of course, they disparaged the competing technologies.
 
Detailking, didn't Ron K debunk your statement that Zaino had "flex agents" in them?



Just how we can't believe a site that sells exclusively carnauba about synthetics, we can't believe a site that sells exclusively syhthetics about carnauba.
 
http://216.147.22.29/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=1383

You believe everything Ron K says? From the above thread about MF towels he states, "There are two basic types, plush which is a 70-30 blend and regular which is a 80-20 blend of polyester and polydamide."

Now if you go to his site, you will see that both towels they are selling are 80/20 blend. Do you know why? Because the polyester/polyamide blend has NOTHING to do with the plushness of a MF towel.

This is just one example of Ron's expertise.

What Ron did was accuse Zaino of lying and state that it does not have a flex agent. He did not debunk any statement about "flex agents".
 
to beleive that hype also, until I studied up on the info for months before making the plunge. I NEVER buy on impulse

unless it's something so cheap that I would not feel guilty for the purchase later, but anything I deem to be more expensive than the "norm", I study. Don't go to the Malm's

website, they sound like a broken record against synthetics also. I even printed out their statements against polymers.

People have been using polymer's for years without evidence of cracking. They only sell carnuba, so what do you expect them to say? There is always resistance to change and advancement. Carnuba pushers may be *slightly* right, maybe

this "cracking" may happen on a super-sealed, garage kept car, but I think the car would be so old that paint failure was bound to happen anyway, in which the sealant helped to stave off the failure. It's like the tire-cracking thing,

sure some products may crack your tires, but unless you have

200K tire life, you'll never know and would have gotten rid of tires at their normal life expectancy anyway! I would rather take my chance with the protection that polymers offer now instead of the *chance* that 25 years down the road my paint *might* crack. I'm sure you will also.
 
Automotive paint is assentially plastic they have flex agents in them to keep them from cracking and lifting. This is how i know that a good sealant must have some kind of flex agent in them.
 
Ron seemed to give a pretty good explanation of the difference in the towels here:

http://autopia-carport.com/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=1817

--and IIRC, in his earlier posts about microfiber (a month or two ago) he was pretty upfront in saying that he was only getting around to testing and learning about the product himself.

Seems like you have a bit of a "chip on your shoulder". I wonder why?

When it comes to advice I will tend to listen to a guy who has a scientific background and uses scientific methods, who has been involved in manufacturing detailing products for years, and who is a consultant for auto manufacturers...rather than someone who just repeats the latest hearsay, as long as it happens to match their agenda.

I've detailed as a hobby for years now, but I have learned a lot reading Ron's stuff, and so have many others on here, I'm willing to bet. Maybe you should try it.
 
Hi JS.





There is science, and there is simply wrapping one's self in status and asserting that others' observations are not valid because they do not have the same titles or industry position as you do.



Now, I agree with you. Fundementally, true (objective, dispassionate) science is where it is at. But, denying others the right to observe and report what they observe is not science, it is dismissing others -- it is saying they are lesser beings, whose observations and thoughts are inherently invalid, because they are not an establishment authority.



History shows that those who attack others, personally, rather than simply presenting objective information -- those that assert their superior status or position, rather than simply presenting objective information, do so because they cannot really defend their positions with facts and logic. The tip off is the person's attitude toward people . . . are they contemptuous, dismissive, hauty, arrogant etc.? Or, truly scientific?



Lastly, most of the great, revolutionary and important scientific breakthoughs were done by mavericks who were condemned and ridiculed by the "experts."



Jeez, what have we gotten into? This is supposed be about keeping cars looking good!
 
Hi darbh:



I don't think you can say Ron has simply used his "status"--he backs up his opinions with explanations and logical arguments. As a matter of fact he gave a good explanation of why it made little sense to include a flex agent in a paint sealant, but apparently RIC up here didn't take the time to read it.



He also gave a good explanation of why paint sealants don't cause paint to crack, which would have answered this person's inital question.
 
Beau, actually Ron did point out the flex ability flaw in one of Detailkings claims. Detailking mentioned that Zaino has flex agents and Ron K. mentioned something to the effect, "Detailking, now you've done it. You've mentioned a lot of bull in the past and now you've just gone overboard. Ron went on to mention that it was a total crock. At any rate, Detailkings post was later deleted.



Ric, Ron mentioned many times already that the 70/30 blend have more fibers per square inch. This is why they are plusher than the 80/20 blend. So his statement that the 70/30 blend are softer and or plusher is valid. Laters.



[Edited by Don2000g on 07-27-2001 at 05:45 PM]
 
Show me that post about the flex agents. Don't quote things you can't find. What do you mean I went overboard?! And what do you mean about me stating a lot of Bull?



You seem to have an attitude that it must be true if RON said so. I am not challenging his knowledge, but if he is so much of a role model for you, why are you using clay instead of his acid washes?



The flex ability of zaino is built in to the formulation and a property of the resins themselves. Please don't go there.....you really don't know what you are talking about, and you have never used those products.
 
Detailking, you had made a comment that Zaino had elasticizers or flex agents; I don't remember which exactly.



Ron replied that there is no such thing, but his post was mysteriously deleted.
 
Exactly Beau, Detailkings post was also deleted. So there is no post to be found. Also for your information Detailking, I was simply mentioning what Ron said. Those were not my words, so don't ruffle your feathers. Laters.
 
I've found Ron K to be extremely helpful. I think we should all be thankful that we have someone of his stature on this board. Ron dosen't use his position in the industry to wrongly sway people. Nor have I found him to look down on others. He simply gives you the facts based on his own knowledge and experience. And isn't that what he is supposed to do? Isn't that what we want? It's what I want. Keep up the good work Ron. Your insight is invaluable to this board member.



Take it easy everyone.
 
Don2000g:

Ron Does not have ANY 70/30 microfiber towels on his site. He has two different plushness 80/20 towels.

Ron's explanation in this post is wrong also:
http://autopia-carport.com/forum/showthread.php3?threadid=1817

I'll repeat again, the polyester/polyamide percentage has nothing to do with plushness.


Ron also believes in the Valugard dealer applied paint sealants that last for 3 years and beyond. I don't believe that there is anyone on this site that would expect 3 years protection with a paint sealant.


JS writes: "As a matter of fact he gave a good explanation of why it made little sense to include a flex agent in a paint sealant." No he didn't. Here was one of his "explanations":"Polymer sealants flex, if you will, because the coating is so thin." He also states,"why would any mfger...want to put in the product an additive that makes the final product less dense, less protective".

He assumes that the flex agent used in Zaino is the same one that is used in the paints. Prove to me that they are the same.


He assumes that Zaino is the same as Nufinish also. He has stated numerous times that he believes if you followed Zaino's instructions with Nufinish you would get the same results.

[Edited by RIC on 07-27-2001 at 02:41 PM]
 
JS



Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them. The problem is created when one party departs from the presentation of information and, instead, PERSONALIZES the communication. Personalization shifts the discussion from the scientific and objective issues to the character of the people.



Personalization typically involves insults to the intelligence or integrety of the other party. One tip off -- one thing that tells you if pesonalization is occuring -- is the EMOTIONAL TONE of the communication. Scientific communications are rational and objective in tone. Personalized comments have negative emotional tones (like scorn, ridicule, outrage, indignation, or belittlement).



Comments like: "DetailKing, now you've done it. You've mentioned a lot of bull in the past and now you've just gone overboard. Ron went on to mention that it was a total crock" are not objective responses to the information or views of another. The words "bull," "overboard," and "crock" are inflamatory. The word "bull" insults the basic integrety of the person. It does not say, "I'm sorry, but I think that the facts are that . . . . " Instead, it can mean, "I think you are a liar or, at least, you are pretty sloppy with the truth."



Once you use words that point at the person and either overtly or, by innuendo, imply that the person might be a liar or have trouble dealing with the truth, you have personalized.



Personalization is unwise and creates conflict where none needs to exist. Assaulting someone, personally, does not sort out the facts of the matter being discussed and is not scientific. It certainly is not good manners and is rude.



So, personalization creates no good and just causes trouble, without creating any offsetting benefit. In short, personalization is destructive behavior.
 
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