Please someone inform this guy about the qualities of a PC

*devils advocate*



This first thing he said was. . .

Swirl marks from a buffer or created by hand are completely different and can easily be removed with a high speed buffer (Not an orbital).

An orbital buffer is a good time saver for cleaning paint and applying wax, but will not remove any serious damage like a high speed rotary buffer will.
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This is true, isn't it? A PC is a good time saver for cleaning paint and applying wax?

And all things being equal, placing an equally skilled PC user and rotary user next to eachother, the rotary user will be able to repair more types of damage than the PC user?

I thought this was true. . .

then someone else said
A Random orbital buffer like the Porter Cable 7424 will do almost anything a rotary can do. There are very few cases when a buffer like the PC can't do the job.It is not just a "time saver" it is a critical tool in the detailing arsenal. I have been detailing for years and I don't even use a rotary. There are sooo many detailers who use rotaries that cause "sun marks" in the paint from inexperience.
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Um, isn't this a bit misleading? A PC can do some of the same types of things a Rotary can, but simply doesn't have the same potential that a rotary does in correctly trained hands, right? And the last comment about the sunmarks isn't reflecting on the rotary tool, its reflecting on the poor user of said tool.

I agree the guy is being jerky, he even went off into an interior detailing tangent to too his own horn and try to make himself look bigger. But its just eleetist puffery. . .He goes on to make several other rather dumb assertions, but he feeds himself with the work he does, if it puts the food he wants to eat on his plate, then whatever.

but the reference the guy cited states when repairing the same types of damage, the Rotary will come out better than the pc, all things being equal. Isn't that right?
 
Kanchou said:
but the reference the guy cited states when repairing the same types of damage, the Rotary will come out better than the pc, all things being equal. Isn't that right?
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Perfection is perfection, no matter how you do it so if you tackle the same defects and remove them with both machines, they are then equal results.



I don't think anyone is questioning the fact that a rotary can repair more major defects but when he started saying that the PC is nothing more than an application tool, that was incorrect to say the least.
 
Well I made my post to shut that guy up!! If he says my post isn't the truth, well than he just doesn't get it!! Check out my post!!!
 
My God that guy is full of himself.



Out of curiosity, what is your guys' opinion on the limits of a rotary? If you can feel the scratch with your nail, is that the limit of a rotary?
 
Thanks for the backup guys... sometimes it takes more than 1 person to try to show someone a point... although this guy doesnt seem open at all.
 
He's repeating what he's heard and read is all. Those who've said that a PC won't do what a rotary will have never been in the position of NEEDING to make a PC do what a rotary will; they've always been able to walk over and pick up the rotary.



Polishing paint is "work". Work is force over time. A rotary is lots of force over a short time, a PC is a small amount of force over a long time. But, the total amount of work (polishing) is exactly the same, if you work long enough with the PC. The work doesn't know the difference, and doesn't care what anyones' opinion is.



Read what I posted... I guess I feel like arguing some tonight.





Tom
 
Few more gems I forgot to post about...



Thats not true.



"Spider webbing" is usually caused by an impact. Its most common on painted plastic surfaces. It is basicly

unrepairable.



BTW, someone might want to tell "smart guy":



A perfect example of swirls...

220856_212_full.jpg




2 examples of spiderwebbing...

mustang_s_before.jpg
11232004102256PM23221.jpg






In bodywork there is also a condition known as spiderwebbing.

You see this with impacts from objects like eggs on hoods,

or impacts to flexible panels like plastci bumpers, or impact

to windshields. True, damage like this almost always

requires repaint, but in the case of detailing,we are talking

about something a little bit different. This is just another

perfect example of not always knowing any better, but

making everyoen think you do.



YOU CANNOT REPAIR SERIOUS PAINT DAMAGE WITH

AN ORBITAL BUFFER.



Perhaps then maybe he can provide a list of the types of

paint damage we shouldn't use a PC on. This will prevent

us from wasting time on work that we would be hopelessly

be incapable of doing.:nixweiss



What I think is the bottom line here (and I may be speculating

on this), is this is his livelyhood. I'm thinking he would not want

folks believing it is so easy to do the work that they wont call

on him.



BTW You guys that are argueing here. People like you

are the reason that most of the people that know what they

are talking about DONT BOTHER TALKING becuase some

nitwits always have to argue when they simply are wrong.

It makes those of us that know better give up on trying to

add content to the site becuase we have to deal with 2 bit

pissants jumping up and down about nothing. I'll tell you,

after this post I DOUBT I will post any other detailing

related advice.



Good. Folks there would probably be much better off for it.



Sad thing is, he may do good work as well. I hope he does

not bring that type of attitude to his clients
 
I dont think he would believe an orbital fixes paint if you stood in front of him and did it right before his eyes.



He just keeps discretiting everything and contradicting himself.
 
LOL, he is an irritating cuss, isn't he?



It would not matter if an entire group of us did a server

invasion, and posted up befores and afters. He would still

be entrenched in his position. Heck for all we know, he might

have been the site's resident authority. And now you guys are

threatening to take that away from him



Shame on you Autopians:D



I just hope that tool does not do work here in NYC...
 
The smart guy's calvary is coming, and he does not seem

to have any more sense than his compadre'.



"This "after" pic Is a great example of a car that needs to be buffed with a rotary. All I see in this pic are shiny swirl marks. It looks like *** to me personally.



If you wanted, you could tell him that the swirl section is

the before section, and the bottom half was the after. Also,

you might want to tell him that the swirl marks he sees probaly

came at the hands of a rotary...



You could tell him these things of course, but why waste the

time.



2k2blackWRX, and guys, just let it go... leave it be....
 
While I have not been to the site in question I will partially agree with some of what this guy is saying, which is that a PC has its limits. When pressed it bogs down nor does it generate enough heat and friction to remove paint defects. In other words it can't level paint, it will not burn paint (unless one leaves it in one spot for a very long time).



The PC will do a nice job on minor surface imperfections but one will get faster and far superior results with a rotary. That's just a fact.



The PC though is not a useless tool and it should not be seen, especially by this guy, as something that "competes" with the rotary, but rather seen as a tool, along with the Cyclo, that "compliments" the rotary. In other words they work hand in hand.



Also people are confusing "swirls" with "halo scratches" or "webbing". These are different animals and the PC can handle most "webbing" but can't always handle "swirls". Many times swirls can go very deep in the paint, so bad that many times one must wetsand the bad areas, and when they are deep the paint must be "leveled" or "abraded" away down to the level where the swirls are. A PC nor a Cyclo can do this.



"Swirls" are micro-scratches and are caused by the operator not finishing out the polishing steps properly. The heavier the cutting pad and more abrasive the product the deeper the swirls will be.



Halo scratches are part of life when one washes and dries their car. Sooner or later they rear their ugly heads and one must then polish the top surface to remove them or cover them up.



So there is a balance. I am not bashing PC users as I have seen pics of some really nice work but rather trying to bring some balance.



Anthony
 
Anthony, my point is that given enough time the PC can duplicate the results of a rotary, and that professionals don't have that kind of time but hobbyists do. All sorts of things that are impossible within restraints become possible when restraints (in this case, of time) are removed. It may not make sense for a professional to reach for the d/a when the rotary is right next to it, but if all a hobbyist has is a d/a and the will to work at it, and an unlimited number of weekends, then the d/a will produce flawless results, just like pebbles in a stream are impossibly smooth. If a d/a will remove a little bit of paint, then it will remove paint a little bit at a time for as long as the user is willing to work at it. A contractor will say that he can't build a 300 foot high pyramid without cranes and heavy equipment, but if you go to Egypt, there are pyramids.



The tool won't produce the result "a flawless finish in a reasonable amount of time", but it will produce the result "a flawless finish within some finite amount of time". Erosion is erosion, and only one's inability to wait for it to happen causes one to declare it an illusion.





Tom
 
I agree with Anthony that there needs to be balance. If you are an amateur, keep reading. If you are a pro, you'll do more in a week than an amateur will in a year and your time is very valuable (you're getting paid for it), so disregard my comments.



Level 1 - The PC is a very good tool that allows you to fix many if not most of the paint problems that you will encounter. As an amateur, who cares if it takes you twice as long to fix 10% of the problems?!? So you spend an extra 4 hours a year! A amateur needs something that works well and is very safe. The PC fills that need.



Level 2 - So what if the PC simply can't hack it for the some of the paint defects? Well then you either get a rotary or hire a pro to buff out your problem areas. Using a rotary requires skill and practice you can seriously damage your paint with even moderate carelessness. Hiring a pro may be a better alternative. I did it. It worked out pretty well except that he couldn't take care of some of the paint chips.



Level 3 - When the Rotary can't handle the problem, you go to the next level - touch up painting and wet sanding. There are multiple approaches to this and some require a lot of skill and patience. Beginners need not apply. But what happens when the problem is too big or too difficult? For example, suppose you have clear coat failure? So then what do you do?



Level 4 - At this point, you need to get the panel or the whole car painted. Now we're at pro level. For any car except a complete junker, amateurs should NEVER attempt this!



I have two points here.



The first and most important is that the rotary buffer isn't the ultimate. It's simply level 2. You still have have two more levels beyond using a rotary buffer.



The second point is that each of the higher levels requires more skill and expense. And you encur more risk. Spending $200 and 20 hours of practice on a rotary buffer just to save a few hours a year in extra effort using a PC may not be worth it!



Let's keep some perspective here. If you have the need, interest, money and time necessary to get good, safe results from a rotary buffer, then by all means, have at it. But please, do NOT think that it's the ultimate, perfect solution; it is NOT!



Regards,



Dan.
 
salty said:
He sounds bullheaded. Maybe invite him to autopia for a look around.
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Don't waste your time "There are none so deaf as those who refuse to listen"
 
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