"Permanent" Coatings

B

bad penny

Member
I was always very skeptical of this Permanent claim.
Now that Coatings have been out for a decade (or more) I notice the word Permanent has been replaced with Ceramic.
I can`t help but wonder if the name change is due to the fact that time has caught up with these companies and their false claims.

Those of you who sold these Coatings as "Permanent" how are you dealing with the aftermath when a client returns and the Coating has failed?
 
I think it was only Optimum that suggested that Opti-Coat was permanent. It`s an SiC coating, rather than an SiO2 coating. I do believe it`s pretty much permanently on there if it`s applied properly. And so is the paint, but if you let the clearcoat sit outside for 5 years without doing anything to it, it`s not going too look too great...and same for the coating. Except the coating is way thinner than the clearcoat.

As far as the aftermath...I think you can look at the forums every day to hear about customers that thought a coating was going to be a force shield and are disappointed.
 
I`d be pretty surprised if any reputable Pro actually told a client that a coating was "permanent". I`d put that in the "you oughta know better.." category.
 
Over a century of thousands of chemists, manufacturers and developers of auto paint---none claim "permanent" products.
Logic dictates if they don`t make such a claim--well, think it through.
 
Setec Astronomy said:
I think it was only Optimum that suggested that Opti-Coat was permanent. It`s an SiC coating, rather than an SiO2 coating. I do believe it`s pretty much permanently on there if it`s applied properly. And so is the paint, but if you let the clearcoat sit outside for 5 years without doing anything to it, it`s not going too look too great...and same for the coating. Except the coating is way thinner than the clearcoat.

As far as the aftermath...I think you can look at the forums every day to hear about customers that thought a coating was going to be a force shield and are disappointed.
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The far fetched claims have always been more then I can stomach. Ad knuckle dragging installers acting like they`ve developed rocket fuel makes me want to slap somebody.
 
My favorite is when I see products that are touted as "semi-permanent" So it`s permanent, but only for a bit of time? Got it!
 
Re: "Permanent" Coatings

bad penny said:
It`s the Toppers that really get me. If it needs that just maintain your be better off polishing and waxing imo
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Perhaps toppers for a coating are no different than someone squirting Beadmaker on top of their Powerlock/Collinite 845 combo.

Not truly necessary but an `entertaining enhancement`?

It`s much the same as the ill-informed decrying the maintenance involved with a coated vehicle. I wash with a shampoo, maybe once a month add a topper. For the Powerlock/845 guy, they wash with a shampoo and top with a spray wax...probably after every wash. Same steps, different bottles.

As for permanent, well, as likely a lot of people in the heat of Arizona can tell you, clearcoat isnt even permanent. The use of phrases such as permanent and semi-permanent are mostly marketing. Probably sounds better and more `serious` than Really Long Lasting!
 
Permanent isn`t the right word, durable is probably the best I can come up with. I agree with OP`s musing that most offer toppers, ridiculous if the product works as advertised. These days you can wash once a month and use a spray wax and your paint will outlast your car. The big advantage with coatings for me is how well they shed dirt, they are like a freshly applied sealant, but for at least a year or two.
 
Dan said:
I agree with OP`s musing that most offer toppers, ridiculous if the product works as advertised.
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As to the whole topic of toppers and boosters on ceramic coatings, keeping in mind this is all theoretical cuz I ain`t no chemist but perhaps:

1. The elements that provide the durability and chemical/environmental protection of a base coating do not provide/are not compatible with the more entertaining aspects folks associate with a `good` LSP.

Things like slickness, exciting water behavior, beading, added gloss. In other words, the base coating provides the functional aspects, the booster the aesthetic aspects. Gyeon Mohs, Gtechniq CSL for example are some pretty tough customers but the visible water behavior is visually not that entertaining, hence the Skin topcoat in the Mohs-based Syncro kit and the `preferred` CSL +EXOV4 application combo.

On their own, Mohs and CSL are more hydrophillic as opposed to hydrophobic and that`s just not as visually entertaining as when topped with a more hydrophobic top layer. While Skin and EXO are `kinda coatings` like CarPro Gliss, Feynlab Topcoat and TAC Topcoat, the concept of topping a coating via dedicated `topcoat` or booster is, to me, kinda the same. The base coating, for whatever reason, can`t encompass all characteristics people recognize as `quality` behavior of an LSP.

2. Sacrificial layer or protecting the protection. Better to contaminate a top layer than the more expensive base coating.

3. Revenue generation. More products needed to maintain the base coating benefits, real or perceived. "You spent all this money on getting it coated, what`s a little bit more?" Kinda akin to changing oil every 3500 miles instead of following mfg recommendations of up to 10k intervals. Better safe than sorry?

4. Just following directions. Most mfgs reccomend some kinda maintenance topper, necessity of it being irrelevant. Again, better safe than sorry?

There`s plenty of well-respected coating aficionados who coat and let it ride...with excellent results so topping is definitely not necessary in all cases. May as well throw `personal preference` on the list as well as that is what drives a lot of this stuff, toppers, coatings, waxes, maintenance products, etc.

I dunno, really...interesting topic but at the end of the day, gotta do what works best *for you*. If that involves toppers/boosters then so be it. If not, no harm, no foul. Variety is the spice of life. There`s often little to do with a coated vehicle besides maintenance washes...the option to throw something else on top is a nice option if one is so inclined to occasionally change the appearance or performance of the base protection.
 
Funfetti cake is a base coat. Does not topping it with frosting make it better.

And if toppers are stupid..... isn’t a coating just a topper for our clearcoat?

Isn’t a clearcoat just a topper for our base coat,

Isn’t our base coat just a topper for the metal.

Dumb ass car manufacturers just topping our cars so we’ll spend more,on them..... pricks....

Anyways I top to protect coating from water spots as these extended coatings are susceptible too. It also adds some pop and shine to the coating which one of the reasons we all do this. Protection AND shine.
Just a noobs thoughts


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quebert said:
My favorite is when I see products that are touted as "semi-permanent" So it`s permanent, but only for a bit of time?
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Heh heh...aw man, I *like* that term! I almost posted something about it earlier on this thread. As I understand it, the idea is that the product is indeed, more or less permanent in that it doesn`t "fail" just due to the passage of time. E.g., put multiple coats of KSG on something and wax on something else; put both in climate-controlled storage for ages; the KSG will stay OK indefinitely but the wax will eventually degrade/dissiapate/"go away". (That`s an IRL example too; the KSG on some bits of my mothballed Jag is still OK after over a decade but the wax on the rest of it was dead many years ago..although it lasted a lot longer than some might`ve expected.)
 
Accumulator said:
Heh heh...aw man, I *like* that term! I almost posted something about it earlier on this thread. As I understand it, the idea is that the product is indeed, more or less permanent in that it doesn`t "fail" just due to the passage of time. E.g., put multiple coats of KSG on something and wax on something else; put both in climate-controlled storage for ages; the KSG will stay OK indefinitely but the wax will eventually degrade/dissiapate/"go away". (That`s an IRL example too; the KSG on some bits of my mothballed Jag is still OK after over a decade but the wax on the rest of it was dead many years ago..although it lasted a lot longer than some might`ve expected.)
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Any thoughts on to why the wax degrades over time given the lack of `harmful exposure`? Cuz I havent a clue which, according to the better half, is par for the course for me
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
Any thoughts on to why the wax degrades over time given the lack of `harmful exposure`? Cuz I havent a clue which, according to the better half, is par for the course for me
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Buy more products, buy new products! If I wax my car and top it with a topper, the wax still degrades into nothing even if I keep it topped with bi weekly applications of a sealant. The detailing market is a big scam. I buy a multi year coating, they recommend I put a booster on it. Why can`t the damn coating have said booster already in it? And why am I topping a $100 coating with a $15 booster? I bet in 2020 we`ll see the introduction of topper boosters, because the topper needs a boost too right?

I watched a Renny Doyle video on P&S`s interior cleaner. He said they make it "easy" yet, I ended up having to order 3 separate products. A cleaner, a enzyme thingy and some sort of Peroxide based whatever. How is using 3 different products to clean seats and carpets easy? Easy to me = 1 product.

THAT`S IT! After my next detailing order, I`m going back on detailing strike for another year.
 
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