People just don't get it.

A

Anthony A

New member
Check out this thread from another forum http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=74359

The guy went through the clear by hand on a new car. He was using 3M Perfect II Rubbing Compound. I use this stuff and I can tell you this stuff is not that aggressive and he still manged to hit base coat BY HAND. Didn't even need a machine. Whats really amusing is the comments from the morons that are telling him it's impossible to do by hand and to try another polish to fix it. The guy does so and makes it worse.

I have been involved in a few threads here on DC about clear coat thickness and weather or not you can damage paint with a PC. This one being the most recent http://www.detailcity.org/forums/ca...819-run-out-clear-coat.html?highlight=anthony
Hope this hits home just how easily it can be done.
 
DKKNE said:
Holy Cow Anthony! Unbelievable! Makes you want to march over there and slap that guy doesn't it? LOL
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Actually I want to slap the clowns that are insisting that it couldn't be done by hand. These are the same type of people that think the clear coat is a foot thick and you can't possibly damage it with a PC. Even when given proof that you can do it by hand they don't believe it. The guy hits base coat and their solution is try a milder polish and remove some more.
 
DKKNE said:
all of that just screams inexperience though...
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That is my point exactly. People need to understand just how thin the clear really is and that you can in fact go through with a PC and even by hand. The clear is not in endless supply. The way people talk you would think they had a lifetime supply of clear on the car. Those people in that thread are in dis belief that the clear was damaged by hand. They get that from these forums and people telling them that a PC is harmless and you only need to be concerned when you use a rotary.
 
Anthony A said:
That is my point exactly. People need to understand just how thin the clear really is and that you can in fact go through with a PC and even by hand. The clear is not in endless supply. The way people talk you would think they had a lifetime supply of clear on the car. Those people in that thread are in dis belief that the clear was damaged by hand. They get that from these forums and people telling them that a PC is harmless and you only need to be concerned when you use a rotary.
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And without knowing the history of the car ( i.e. how many times it has been bufed and by whom, any accident damage etc.. ) how can a detailer know for sure how much they can buff? Thats why I use my best judgement and those aformentioned paint depth meters to get a good idea what I am working with. Nothign is 100% accurate, you just have to get into the detail to see what you are workign with and what needs to be done.
 
DKKNE said:
And without knowing the history of the car ( i.e. how many times it has been bufed and by whom, any accident damage etc.. ) how can a detailer know for sure how much they can buff? Thats why I use my best judgement and those aformentioned paint depth meters to get a good idea what I am working with. Nothign is 100% accurate, you just have to get into the detail to see what you are workign with and what needs to be done.
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Actually that car was new. We are not talking about a 10 year old car that has been polished repeatedly. Just to put things in perspective this guy went through clear by hand on a NEW car using a product that is similar in abrasiveness to many products used by people on DC with a PC. 3M Perfect it II Fine Cut Rubbing Compound is around the same abrasiveness level as Meguiars #83 DACP and Poorboy's SSR 2.5. It's a little more abrasive than Menzerna IP and a lot less abrasive than Menzerna Power Gloss. Don't let the rubbing compound name fool you this stuff is not liquid sand paper. I have been using it for years and it's not a super heavy duty compound.
 
Now I read that thread and looked at the pictures. I don't think he went threw the clear, I think he rubbed himself a nice little dull spot. Pictures are tough to see the damage,. we all know that. Without seeign this in person, Its hard to make a certain call on this one. Regardless, I can;t believe someone could rub in one spot for that long and go thru the clear..
 
Anthony,

Let's assume the guy did cut through the clear. Since you think all the people that replied to him are morons how would you repair the spot?
 
Anthony A said:
That is my point exactly. People need to understand just how thin the clear really is and that you can in fact go through with a PC and even by hand. The clear is not in endless supply. The way people talk you would think they had a lifetime supply of clear on the car. Those people in that thread are in dis belief that the clear was damaged by hand. They get that from these forums and people telling them that a PC is harmless and you only need to be concerned when you use a rotary.
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I always tell folks that while a PC is safe in a majority of situations, it IS possible to cause damage with an aggressive-enough pad and product. I also tell folks that unless they know the complete history of the vehicle's paint (meaning is it original or not, has it been buffed or sanded at any time, etc.) that they should NOT do any polishing prior to having the paint's thickness read by a body shop or someone with an ETG.

Now I know yet another reason I don't post on "that" forum anymore. All the old-timers got chased away and now it's a bunch of inexperienced newbies....
 
I just want to say that Richard (Octanceguy) who posted in that thread, IMO is a very knowledgeable detailer. He seems to be Mike Phillips protege in some capacity and he does great work from what I've seen. Plus his write ups are some of the most detailed and best written out there. So, I think the blanket statement of calling all the people in that thread morons was unfair and inaccurate.
 
RTexasF said:
Anthony,

Let's assume the guy did cut through the clear. Since you think all the people that replied to him are morons how would you repair the spot?
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Well lets use some logic here. If he went through the clear than he hit base coat right? How exactly will rubbing it some more correct that? The clear is gone. Repaint plain and simple.
 
DKKNE said:
Now I read that thread and looked at the pictures. I don't think he went threw the clear, I think he rubbed himself a nice little dull spot. Pictures are tough to see the damage,. we all know that. Without seeign this in person, Its hard to make a certain call on this one. Regardless, I can;t believe someone could rub in one spot for that long and go thru the clear..
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You may be correct. I am not there so I can't say for sure either if he went through the clear. I can only go by what the guy is saying. He also said that he was getting paint on his app which would indicate he did in fact hit base coat. If the paint on the app is colored clear coat as some one mentioned than the guy would have noticed the paint on the app from the start and it doesn't sound like he did to me.

As for going through the clear by hand why do you find that hard to believe? It sounds like the car is new and probably was damaged in shipment or at the dealership and was "touched up". The touch up was probably crap and paper thin and it wouldn't take much to damage.
 
Mikeyc said:
I just want to say that Richard (Octanceguy) who posted in that thread, IMO is a very knowledgeable detailer. He seems to be Mike Phillips protege in some capacity and he does great work from what I've seen. Plus his write ups are some of the most detailed and best written out there. So, I think the blanket statement of calling all the people in that thread morons was unfair and inaccurate.
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When I used the term morons I was not suggesting that everybody in the thread was one.
 
DKKNE said:
But looking at the pictures shows only a dull area.. can;t really tell from teh picture.
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To be honest I can't even tell what color the car is from the pic. Maybe blue or black? I can only go by what the guy said.

The point of me starting this thread was to point out the attitude of some of these people. They are just amazed that the clear can be gone through. They think it's impossible unless you pound it with a rotary or something. Even if the guy ends up being wrong and it's just hazing (which I doubt because he said the lighter polish made it worse) it still goes to show what people think about clear coat.
 
Anthony A said:
When I used the term morons I was not suggesting that everybody in the thread was one.
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It appeared that you did suggest that. The truth is that there's not a soul here that actually knows if he just scuffed it or actually did major damage.

I hope, for the owner's sake, that it's easily repairable. If not, it's a tough and somewhat expensive lesson.
 
RTexasF said:
The truth is that there's not a soul here that actually knows if he just scuffed it or actually did major damage.
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That is why you have to take him at his word and assume he did go through the clear. In that case further polishing would not only be useless but it would make matters worse. The people were referred to as morons because they couldn't even begin to grasp the fact that you can go through clear coat by hand or PC and it isn't that hard to do. I bet it happens more than people are willing to admit.
 
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