Pay scale detailers

brwill2005 said:
So trying to explain to people what it is and what the value is in it wont help? I disagree. If people realize there is something tangible in detailing, such as greater re-sale value, they may be willing to pay more.
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I don't think anyone is saying that. You should certainly try to explain to your potential customers the benefits of detailing, but many people don't take care of their houses, their cars, or themselves, and preaching to them isn't likely to turn them into regular customers, any more than the surgeon general telling people that being overweight, smoking, etc. is bad for you has ended those conditions.



What is the point here? That plumbers are getting rich and detailers aren't? Other than the fact that a plumber charged a lot for 20 minutes I don't think there has been anything concrete here indicating that plumbers are overpaid or detailers are underpaid.
 
Just because we as autopians think it is such a priority to have a nice freshly detailed car, and we know how much it helps protect the car, blah blah. This does not mean our service is a necessity or will ever be on the level as a plumber.



Plumbing is a necessity to keep your house in good condition and working order so things operate. How much value is held by keeping your plumbing in proper working order compared to the value had by not having swirls in your car or dirt in your wheel wells? This is why he can charge you $160 for 30 minutes of work. Having you're vehicle detailed is a luxury that most people don't see the need or ability to afford.



With kids, house payments, furnishing your house, car payments, going out to dinner a higher priority for most....the average consumer doesn't think regularly about having their car perfectly detailed.



How many people when they try to educate the customer on swirls says..."What are swirls" In my opinion we have to educate the customer on what damage is being done to their paint and what swirls are.



I also fail to see the point you are trying to make Frank..you say:

"Many just see it as a way to make quick money."



When really, we as autopians do not see this as anything that is performed quickly and make money quick? How many times do you hear people talking about their market and they can't afford to charge more? We detail because we love it and it makes us money on the side, those who do this professionaly are not in it to make quick money as look how hard they have worked to build a client base. I fail to see how you can prove people are in this to make quick money at an autopian level. If I wanted to make quick money, along with anyone else here we all know the easy route to take...but we take pride in our work and reputation and research products and technique...
 
Everyone has hit the nail on the head here. Look how often we go out to the store and end up with a dent or scratch on our cars because the idiot parked next to us doesn't give a crap. For something that is pretty much the second most expensive purchase we will ever make, people just treat their cars like it's a $3 matchbox car. Until people decide it's in their best interest to protect their purchase, you will never see high demand, or high paid detailers (as a norm anyway).



But a detail will never be a priority like plumbing. You would pay $75 to have a plumber spend 20 minutes to fix your sink because you need water. But would you pay that same plumber (assuming he has the skill) to buff out your stainless sink that's looking dingy? For most the answer would be heck no. Only someone with a lot of discretionary income that has a high priority on everything looking good will be willing to pony up.
 
Joshua312 said:
I also fail to see the point you are trying to make Frank...



We detail because we love it and it makes us money on the side
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How many people do you know go out there and do plumbing because they love it and it makes them money on the side?



The point is that detailing for profit should not be done only to make money on the side. That really does not do very much to help the image of detailers. Too many detailers running around focused on satisfying their own needs, rather than being completely focused on meeting the needs of the customer. These detailers should have figured it out by now that it is much better to do it right and focus on the customer or not do it at all.



In summary, the reason why a detailer should go out there and provide professional detailing services should always be to satisfy the needs of the customer, not their own needs.
 
Frank,



You do not listen to what others say and just keep on talking about things that don't make sense to the topic at hand.



"The point is that detailing for profit should not be done only to make money on the side. That is simply what is wrong with the detailing industry. Too many people running around focused on satisfying their own needs, rather than being completely focused on meeting the needs of the customer. Either do it right and focus on the customer or do not do it at all."





From the sounds of things it's like your willing to work for free. Please tell me what I am doing that is not meeting the needs of the customer?? Because I would love to hear your insight on this as well as you have all answers. How am I focused on satisfying my own needs when I buy the best products, spend whatever time it takes to make a vehicle perfect, and most of the time under-charge for my services because I am picky and want things to be perfect?



"How many people do you know go out there and do plumbing because they love it and it makes them money on the side? "





What does this have to do with anything? It is not my job to detail, I do it to meet my customers needs! Just because I have a job other than detailing does not mean my work is any less than someone like you.



Please enlighten us as to why we are doing everything wrong and are ruining detailers names. I have yet to have one complaint from a customer so please tell me why I should not do this to make money on the side? Why is what I do on the side different from a plumber doing it to make profit or even different from a full-time detailer? We both do the job, do it because our passion is helping others with their needs, and making money while doing it.
 
mirrorfinishman said:
How many people do you know go out there and do plumbing because they love it and it makes them money on the side?



The point is that detailing for profit should not be done only to make money on the side. That really does not do very much to help the image of detailers. Too many detailers running around focused on satisfying their own needs, rather than being completely focused on meeting the needs of the customer. These detailers should have figured it out by now that it is much better to do it right and focus on the customer or not do it at all.



In summary, the reason why a detailer should go out there and provide professional detailing services should always be to satisfy the needs of the customer, not their own needs.
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Just as there are "weekend worrior" detailers, there are "weekend worrior" plumbers, and gardeners and electricians etc. and there always will be. My education teaches that a car can in most cases be made to look near or better than new and kept that way. Is that not an image and business builder?
 
This started out as a "wouldn't it be nice if detailers could make as much as some other occupations" thread by Turbomangt. Anyone who is confused as to the direction the thread has taken should think about who has something to gain monetarily in convincing people "it is the detailer who needs to be educated and change the way they think".
 
Joshua,



The low pay scale of detailers, like it or not is constantly being unified by the unprofessional image being presented to the public by those detailers only providing their service as a way to make money on the side. That is the topic at hand and that is the point of my comments.
 
Answer me this then Frank if you don't like the image given by people who like to do this on the side? Why do you sell a book informing people how to get into this business themselves? I for one would never pay *you* $200 too tell me the stuff you are putting in this thread. Nor would I want to be educated by someone with your views...I think you should do your customers a favor and point them to this thread before purchasing from you.



Just my .02 but I'm done for now because I know nothing will ever be right that I say as you are one of those people who always has to be right and everyone else is doing everything wrong... :bow
 
mirrorfinishman said:
The low pay scale of detailers, like it or not is constantly being unified by the unprofessional image being presented to the public by those detailers only providing their service as a way to make money on the side. That is the topic at hand and that is the point of my comments.
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I would point out that the original poster is a fixed-base, professional detailer with high-profile clientele, including the Oprah Show and sports figures.
 
I also do this on the side occassionally, though not as much these days. But I think Frank has a point. Guys like Gary, Frank, I'm assuming, and Jimmy Buffit here, are professionals and present a professional image. They do not pack up their polish, brushes, wax, etc., etc., into the back of their Honda(or Chevy, Toyota, etc.), and " buy the best products, spend whatever time it takes to make a vehicle perfect, and most of the time under-charge for my services ". These guys, and guys like Scott, and Anthony, and anyone I'm missing who does this professionally is included, DON'T under-charge for their services and position themselves as "hobbyists". They are pros, they present themselves like pros, and I am sure they price themselves as pros.



Look, I'm as bad as anyone, I have more than once done a car, and charged less than I should have, because I wanted it right, or it was for a pal, etc. Jimmy, Anthony, Frank, Gary, wouldn't take that job because this is their livlihood and they have to position themselves in the market.



I disagree with the comment about "hobbyist" plumbers, unless you are talking about someone who is helping out buddies. Certainly not to the level of detailers who put up a brochure and promise miracles for $100. We all complain about not getting $300 for a detail, but that's because someone is willing to do it for $75. Not to downplay anyone's skill, but one of the big differences between someone running this as a business and someone who is doing this for a few bucks on the side is that pros see a Porsche with a cheap owner offering $75 as an opportunity to detail a Porsche, and a pro sees it as tieing up a valuable slot at less than half his going rate.



I'm as guilty as anyone, but there is a difference in running a business as a pro, and undercutting yourself because you do this on the side.



Sam
 
With all due respect, some folks who do it on the side are by far, hands down, superior to those who are professional. Sean (G35Stilez) and Joe (ebpcivicsi) are prime examples and they charge to match their results.



Other folks who do it on the side, such as myself are college educated, articulate and professional because we carry our work ethic, standards and attention to professionalism from our white collar careers into our weekend hobby. Most of the time, we do better work as evidence of my calls to correct others mistakes. Further, I collect more for a full detail compared to the professionals in my area. I've had wealthy people look at me like I had 2 heads when I quoted them $275 to detail their car; and I've had clients write me letters of recommendation for school and job interviews after detailing for them routinely.



Detailers are viewed as people who clean cars. Plumbers are viewed as folks who deliver a service that make an impact on our daily lives - a NECESSITY that requires training, an education, a license, etc... Their impact is far MORE than someone who cleans a car for folks with a disposable income. Give someone the option of a clean car or running water and I think we all know what they will take.



I've got a client up in Setec's area whose car I work on year round. She is anal about a clean car, where as her husband, an investment banker, drives a 1987 Mercedes that has never been washed once. He scoffs at a clean car despite what I preach to him. But, if a pipe springs a leak, he'll drop serious money to get it fixed. That's why a plumber earns more money than a detailer, NOT because someone who does it on the side. We are a captive audience when it comes to plumbers because they got us by the balls. If they don’t fix it, we don’t have water.



If anything, *I* give detailers a good image - clean cut, professional, honest and friendly. Other detailers in my area are immigrant laborers making $6 an hour at a car wash or the low man on the totem poll at the dealer with a dirty wash mitt or my local guy, who when I visited, wreaked of alcohol. In fact, I got two details from folks who experienced the same person and then heard of me from a referral. One was a 1978 Mercedes 450 SEL that took first place at the Mercedes show at their USA headquarters.



So I think the "professionals" can learn from ME and others on this board.
 
Spilchy said:
With all due respect, some folks who do it on the side are by far, hands down, superior to those who are professional. Sean (G35Stilez) and Joe (ebpcivicsi) are prime examples and they charge to match their results.
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Thank you :).





Spilchy said:
So I think the "professionals" can learn from ME and others on this board.
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Thank you :).
 
If you're charging $275 for a detail, then you must be doing something right. Congrats. But making great money on the weekend detailing out of the back of your car, even doing it well, is not the same as running a successful detailing business.



If anything, *I* give detailers a good image - clean cut, professional, honest and friendly. Other detailers in my area are immigrant laborers making $6 an hour at a car wash or the low man on the totem poll at the dealer with a dirty wash mitt or my local guy, who when I visited, wreaked of alcohol.
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Here is the problem in a nutshell. Even you, who know the difference, refer to lowpaid car washers or dealer cleanup guys as "Detailers". They aren't, they are day laborers who wash cars. I doubt that successful detailers like Jim, or Joe, or some of the others can legitimately be compared to car washers. I would expect they are clean cut, professional, honest, etc., etc., and showing the same admirable traits in their profession that you show in yours.



Again, I am sure that you do a fine job, as does Sean, Joe, and any number of other detailers here. However, I believe there is a huge difference between running a successful detailing business, and as you admit, performing it as a weekend hobby, albeit, a lucrative hobby. And it seems to me, the ability to detail is probably not even the most important skill in establishing yourself and your business as a successful entity.
 
The part time detailers mentioned above are good for the detailing business because they raise the bar for everyone. Competition is good for everyone, because it forces the marginal detailing operations to either improve, or go out of business. The part time detailers who are presenting with a bad image and doing marginal work, will not survive in the business. Just for the record, I do this full time.
 
SamIam said:
However, I believe there is a huge difference between running a successful detailing business, and as you admit, performing it as a weekend hobby, albeit, a lucrative hobby. And it seems to me, the ability to detail is probably not even the most important skill in establishing yourself and your business as a successful entity.
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Does this mean that you can't have a "successful" part time business?
 
mirrorfinishman said:
In summary, the reason why a detailer should go out there and provide professional detailing services should always be to satisfy the needs of the customer, not their own needs.
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Oh really? This from the man who, when other detailers are trying to figure out how to price washes, wash/wax jobs and interior details jumps in and says "what are you, a detailer or a car washer?"



To me, satisfying a customer means taking care of all their car care needs, from weekly washing to complete detailing.



Back to the topic at hand....



What we really need to focus on is attracting customers who value a well detailed car as much as we do. That is our core market. People who want an enthusiast level detail and understand the value of it.
 
Not at all. Lots of people have successful part time businesses. Or lucrative hobbies.



I don't mean to offend anyone. But I do think there is an important difference between a guy like Superior Shine, or Jimmy Buffit, etc., who have established successful businesses and part time guys who have successful part time businesses.



From a business standpoint, I guess my issue is, how does a guy with a successful business, build it and stand apart from a guy doing detailing out of his van on weekends. I am fascinated by guys who build an entity, and their ability to master so many skills.



One of the earlier comments regarding bringing "white collar" skills and professionalism to the business struck me as pretty condescending. I've seen the same pictures everyone else has of details that were outstanding, but you saw in the reflection of the bright, shiny car a guy wearing torn jeans and a t-shirt. Does that impact your ability to do outstanding work? No. Does it set a level of "white collar" professionalism that makes you stand apart from any other guy who may or may not do a good job. Again, no.



Look, I've done a fair bit on the side myself, and I wear shorts, work out pants, t shirts, any dirty old shirt sitting on the top of the heap. But I don't wear that in my white collar profession, and I'm not insinuating I'm a professional detailer, just an enthusiatic hobbist looking for a couple of bucks.



Anyways, guys who can build a sustainable business, especially in a tough business like the detailing world, have my respect.



And I have nothing but envy for guys who can build a great part time income through something they love.
 
I'm new to this whole "detailing" thing so feel free to ignore me, but I find this subject interesting since I'd like to get into this as a "part time hobby" in the future. Frank, no disrespect, but I have reread your posts more than once and still can't figure out what your point is.



The original post was talking about why a plumber made $495 an hour for his service call, and detailers are nowhere near this. You seem to be puting plumbers on some pedestal here, and then trashing detailers, especially the hobbyists that do it on the weekend. I'm sorry, but plumbing and detailing are two entirely different animals here. If memory serves me right, plumbers belong to a union. Hence, I'm sure it's pretty likely that plumbers "have" to be charging very similar hourly rates or they would get in trouble. Detailing has no union, hence people are charging all over the map. Plumbing is not an easy thing to do, hence the lack of people doing it part time as you say. Detailing on the other hand is very easy. Now I'm not saying everyone can do it right, but it's easy to do it. Most people do not have the eye for detail, so they won't notice the crappy job some "detailers" do. Plumbing on the other hand is not easy for some hack to do it without training, education, etc. Then you make it sound like plumbers have this great image, while detailers do not. This one really dumbfounded me. If plumbers have such a great image, why do we constantly poke fun at the guy bent over under the sink with his butt crack showing? Anyone I've ever talked to about plumbing has this image of guys that are overpaid, and work when they feel like it. I can't really compare detailers since I don't know any, or know anyone that uses one. And if you think plumbers are in business to "service and take care of their customers needs" then you are on crack sir. What plumber does the job because he loves it and loves giving service to strangers? I'm sorry, but 99% of all people are in business to make money, not service people's needs. They see a need, and they take advantage of it to make money.



And as far as your last comment about the pay scale being unified by weekenders trying to make money on the side is just ignorant. Do you not pay any attention to the world economy? You can compare this discussion very simply. And that is to compare it to the US losing work to China. Or get even more simple, compare it to the small store versus Walmart situation. People flock to Walmart because of the low prices. All they see is the dollars. There are people out there trying to educate the world on some of the shady business practices of Walmart to keep prices low, or make you think they are lower when they are not. They also try to educate people about the fact that Walmart has a lot of inferior products. Detailing from what I see is much the same. There are a lot of so called "detailers" that do a bad job. They cut corners, use cheap products, whatever. The problem is that the consumer doesn't know any better. They just see that this guy charges one third of what you guys do, so he goes with the crappy detail. So from my viewpoint, I think education is the number one priority to convert these people from the "Darkside". Of course you will always have the ones that want to be cheap about it, or can't afford to get the right job done. But from what I can see, the part time detailers have no negative affect on the payscale whatsoever, unless of course they are doing a crappy job like all the so called "professionals".



Sorry, I guess this ended up as a novel. :o
 
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