pads, polishes, grit level removal help

N

new99

New member
Hi everyone,



I have a few questions:



1. Is the cutting from a polish and a pad the same type of cut? I've read that pads have different cuts (say, lake country orange pad 2000 grit) and then I read polishes have them as well (menzerna sip 2000 grit), does that effectively remove a combined 4000 grit? If not, how does that work then? Because it would seem one could get by with using different compounds/polish on say, one white pad and relying on the grit level from the product every time and have good results. Or is the advertised 2000 grit from e.g. menzerna sip assumed to be accomplished with the orange pad?



2. Just curious, is the hardness, materials, or texture of the pad the difference and indicator of how much it will remove?



3. If using a more aggressive pad, are you always more than likely going to have to use another (less aggressive) polish step? If so, why is that?



Thanks!
 
new00- Welcome to Autopia! Long-winded response follows:



1)Here's how I see the pad/product cut thing- Whichever has the most cut, that's what you get. Use a mild product with an aggressive pad, and the pad can scour the finish even if the product doesn't have enough cut to *correct* the finish. Use an aggressive product with a mild pad (which IME works out a *LOT* better, BTW) and the aggressive product will cut/level/correct the paint even though the pad doesn't "help" by contributing cut of its own.



The two don't combine in a linear manner to give you the end result however, just not that simple unfortunately.



The advertised "grit cut" levels of products....eh, I'd ignore them! NEVER even remotely close to accurate IME and more a marketing gimmick than anything else. Almost always overstated to make a given polishing liquid sound "really capable". Just try removing real-world 2K scratches in a timely manner with those "2000 grit correction" products, you'll usually be there all day unless you use a rotary with a harsh wool pad.



In a perfect world (OK, I'll drop the snarky cynicism) the cut rating is based on combinations of "usually compatible products and pads). So a cutting liquid would be teamed with a cutting pad as you suspected. But again, [insert cynical skepticism!]





2) The pads firmness, type of foam, texture, and porosity all factor in. And then there are the microfiber pads to consider....



3) IMO/IME (and others will have differing opinions and experiences, again this stuff just isn't cut-and-dried the way one might like) if you use a harsh pad (e.g., orange foam light-cut pad) you will need to follow up with a milder pad and or pad/product combo. Some problematic paints/situations will require multiple step-downs to finish out "right" (whatever that means to a given user).



That's one reason why I'd rather use a harsh product/mild pad combo than the other way around. "If in doubt, up the product not the pad" is my rule-of-thumb. But then you just gotta resort to trial-and-error to get dialed in.



Note that some aggressive products break down, becoming less abrasive. The pads might eventually wear down and become milder, but it won't accomplish the same thing. This is part of why a harsh product on a mild pad can sometimes finish out surprisingly well. Some accomplished detailers can even use harsh products that *do not* break down/become milder in conjunction with a mild pad and get a nice finish...it's matter of technique and experience (I can't do it myself, at least not to my satisfaction).



Reason being, the harsher the pad, the more likely to cause scouring of the finish. Sometimes it's so bad you'll see hazing, other times it "just doesn't look right", e.g., reflections aren't crisp, color isn't true, evaluators aren't happy.



There are just sooo many variables that factor in! It's not like this stuff is some kind of magic/voodoo/esoteric or mystical art, it's just that those innumerable variables mean that you can only take any generalizations so far, and usually not as far as some of us more analytical types would like.
 
Accumulator said:
new00- Welcome to Autopia! Long-winded response follows:



1)Here's how I see the pad/product cut thing- Whichever has the most cut, that's what you get. Use a mild product with an aggressive pad, and the pad can scour the finish even if the product doesn't have enough cut to *correct* the finish. Use an aggressive product with a mild pad (which IME works out a *LOT* better, BTW) and the aggressive product will cut/level/correct the paint even though the pad doesn't "help" by contributing cut of its own.



The two don't combine in a linear manner to give you the end result however, just not that simple unfortunately.



The advertised "grit cut" levels of products....eh, I'd ignore them! NEVER even remotely close to accurate IME and more a marketing gimmick than anything else. Almost always overstated to make a given polishing liquid sound "really capable". Just try removing real-world 2K scratches in a timely manner with those "2000 grit correction" products, you'll usually be there all day unless you use a rotary with a harsh wool pad.



In a perfect world (OK, I'll drop the snarky cynicism) the cut rating is based on combinations of "usually compatible products and pads). So a cutting liquid would be teamed with a cutting pad as you suspected. But again, [insert cynical skepticism!]





2) The pads firmness, type of foam, texture, and porosity all factor in. And then there are the microfiber pads to consider....



3) IMO/IME (and others will have differing opinions and experiences, again this stuff just isn't cut-and-dried the way one might like) if you use a harsh pad (e.g., orange foam light-cut pad) you will need to follow up with a milder pad and or pad/product combo. Some problematic paints/situations will require multiple step-downs to finish out "right" (whatever that means to a given user).



That's one reason why I'd rather use a harsh product/mild pad combo than the other way around. "If in doubt, up the product not the pad" is my rule-of-thumb. But then you just gotta resort to trial-and-error to get dialed in.



Note that some aggressive products break down, becoming less abrasive. The pads might eventually wear down and become milder, but it won't accomplish the same thing. This is part of why a harsh product on a mild pad can sometimes finish out surprisingly well. Some accomplished detailers can even use harsh products that *do not* break down/become milder in conjunction with a mild pad and get a nice finish...it's matter of technique and experience (I can't do it myself, at least not to my satisfaction).



Reason being, the harsher the pad, the more likely to cause scouring of the finish. Sometimes it's so bad you'll see hazing, other times it "just doesn't look right", e.g., reflections aren't crisp, color isn't true, evaluators aren't happy.



There are just sooo many variables that factor in! It's not like this stuff is some kind of magic/voodoo/esoteric or mystical art, it's just that those innumerable variables mean that you can only take any generalizations so far, and usually not as far as some of us more analytical types would like.
Click to expand...



Awesome. Thanks.
 


:welcome: to Autopia new99





Be cognizant that both polish / compound and pad grit numbers are referenced to a rotary polisher using wool pads (to the best of my knowledge they have never been changed to suit orbital polishers or foam pads) the higher numbers indicate a smoother finish.



Equivalent Abrasive Rating



The grit rating on an abrasive or polishing pad is an indication that a product is designed remove the surface scratches left by finishing paper (i.e. 2000 grit scratches are removed by a 2500 grit rated polish) it doesn't mean that it is a 2500 grit level abrasive.



• The coarser the abrasive, the faster the cut

• The more aggressive the pad, the faster the cut

• Wool cuts faster than lamb’s wool, foamed wools are next, then foam.

• Foam pads generate more friction induced heat than wool pads



The key to the polishing process is to know how the paint will react with each pad / polish combination you consider using. You must know your product and what its capabilities are before using it. This is why a ‘test’ spot is so important.



The factors that affect the outcome -speed, friction (kinetic energy) applied pressure, foam pad actual surface contact area, pad grit number (abrasive ability) amount of surface lubrication available, the surface area and heat conductivity of material







“Foam Pads I” - http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/136531-foam-pads-i.html#post1448087
 
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