Own a classic...but at what price?!

[imported_Rcrew]

The E39 M5 (96-03)...know by many simply as "the beast".  This car received huge praise when it was released, particularly from '01-'03.  Fantastic power, handling, braking, plus you could seat 4 and still throw luggage in the trunk.  To me, it is a classy, fantastically styled car and represents a terrific balance of everything you could want in a vehicle.  I have no doubt they will be considered a "classic" and be sought after by car collectors.  I would love to own one.  


 


To cut to the chase, an acquaintance of mine has owned one since new.  It is a 2002, with approximately 170k on it.  It is essentially stock, without performance modification.  Items that were added are: clear bra (front end, A pillars, back fascia), bluetooth phone integration, and all weather mats.  He has all maintenance paperwork, and all work was performed at either the dealer or local performance shop.  Although I haven't looked through it, I understand that all maintenance is up to date.


 


The car is really in good shape aesthetically, especially for the miles.  Paint, leather, wheels etc...He has babied it and it has never been tracked.   


 


I have been talking with him for over a year now, letting him know to contact me when he is ready to sell.  At one point last summer he expressed to me that he would love to sell it to someone he knows and is local.  In addition, he told me that he wanted to get between 8-10k for it.  At that point it had 150k or so.  He also told me that he would probably be ready to sell within the next year.


 


Fast forward to today, when I called him up to check in.  He told me that he was ready to sell and actually had posted it to some online car sale sites.  He apologized for forgetting to contact me and told me that he did have one out of state offer for $12k.  He is listing the car for $15k, but told me that he would like to get $13k out of it.  Although I was definitely shocked at this change, I told him I would look at the postings and get back to him.  I wanted to get my thoughts together before questioning him harder to justify the pricing and the change since this summer.  


 


I also wanted to pick your brains and get any advice you folks may have.  


At this point, I realize that these cars are getting more rare and are considered a classic.  This justifies to me a sale price higher than the $5-7k on kbb.com or other car sale websites.  However, I am having a lot of trouble breaking past $10k, especially for something high miles with really no performance mods.  I think most of you would agree with this line of thinking, but please let me know your advice, including any strategies for negotiating this price down.


 


Thanks!!!

 

[David Fermani]

I'd be very cautious about the mileage that it has. Anything that requires replacement is going to be pricey. I'm going to reach out to a friend/member who knows these cars pretty well to see if he can comment.


 


Kelly Blue Book is no more than a buyer "Guide". It doesn't represent any real world factual sales data to support their pricing. I prefer using NADA and Auto Trader much better. 

 

[jlb85]

This is not a classic, too young still to be considered one. It is an older-modern european specialty car.

This is my opinion, and there are people better versed and with much more experience. I am just a budget minded late-30 year old that likes european (german) cars and can do plenty of work myself. I've had a few, nothing fancy, and always struggled with the value-price-reliability-image-performance dilema. What to buy, how much to pay, then how much to dump into it. I like to work on it myself for the "fun" jobs. Anything like replacing a clutch, suspension changes, anything larger than 17mm bolts I prefer to let someone else do it.

European cars, unlike american cars (again, just my opinion), underwent significant technology roll-outs and changes through the 90's. These changes were "agressive", and as such they presented issues with reliability. Coupled with poor us-mechancs' understanding and very high dealer prices for parts and repairs, they gained a stigma for complicated and expensive to repair. That doesn't mean american cars were more reliable, they were just, for the most cases, more familiar to work with and less complicated.

Early 90's brought a change to digital fuel injection, and more importantly, body building and materials. By the late 90's issues of cracking dashboards were eliminated. Bodys stayed stiff after 100k miles. Electronics continued to work, and wires did not dissintegrate. ESP, ABS, ESP, and other driver aids were still drivers aides, not legal liability protection. OBD2 meant better electronic packages and much improved communication. Electronic throttles were still benchmarked to their non-electronic counterparts, so the cars' response was more linear and predictable. Bla bla bla. The point: all the older european specialty cars I have owned are rock solid and extremely reliable.

In my experience, the single most important factor/decider is a simple one: do you have a mechanic. All the maintenence prior is great, but was it done by a mechanic that knew and understood the car? And will you continue to use the same mechanic or one similar? Are you willing to spend more than a typical car payment on maintenence and mods?

It you do have a mechanic and can/will keep it up, the. 170k miles is not a big deal. Repairing/ overhauling the engine (if done before it breaks) will be pricey, but straightforward. If it blows up, its a $12k motor. All the suspension parts should be easy for a seasoned mechanic to work on. Usually all bolts come off fine (they used good anti-corrosion coatings), but they will be pricey and repair work will be expensive. Just not anymore expensive as any suspension work on an american car. At those miles it either got them replaced already or will need to soon.

A friend and owner of one of these cars (and many other europeans, mainly porsche) said "Well, if it does not have a bunch of codes on, and its running / sounding right, sure. Its a $12000 motor when its blown up. If he's paying $10-12 grand for it sure...they will be expensive cars in a few years..."

I hope to own one someday!

 

[imported_Rcrew]

I'd be very cautious about the mileage that it has. Anything that requires replacement is going to be pricey. I'm going to reach out to a friend/member who knows these cars pretty well to see if he can comment.


 


Kelly Blue Book is no more than a buyer "Guide". It doesn't represent any real world factual sales data to support their pricing. I prefer using NADA and Auto Trader much better. 

Thanks for chipping in David, I appreciate you reaching out to your friend.  I'm not familiar with NADA, but will check them out for more opinions. Auto Trader is always a good source of info too.  


 


 


 

This is not a classic, too young still to be considered one. It is an older-modern european specialty car. This is my opinion, and there are people better versed and with much more experience. I am just a budget minded late-30 year old that likes european (german) cars and can do plenty of work myself. I've had a few, nothing fancy, and always struggled with the value-price-reliability-image-performance dilema. What to buy, how much to pay, then how much to dump into it. I like to work on it myself for the "fun" jobs. Anything like replacing a clutch, suspension changes, anything larger than 17mm bolts I prefer to let someone else do it. European cars, unlike american cars (again, just my opinion), underwent significant technology roll-outs and changes through the 90's. These changes were "agressive", and as such they presented issues with reliability. Coupled with poor us-mechancs' understanding and very high dealer prices for parts and repairs, they gained a stigma for complicated and expensive to repair. That doesn't mean american cars were more reliable, they were just, for the most cases, more familiar to work with and less complicated. Early 90's brought a change to digital fuel injection, and more importantly, body building and materials. By the late 90's issues of cracking dashboards were eliminated. Bodys stayed stiff after 100k miles. Electronics continued to work, and wires did not dissintegrate. ESP, ABS, ESP, and other driver aids were still drivers aides, not legal liability protection. OBD2 meant better electronic packages and much improved communication. Electronic throttles were still benchmarked to their non-electronic counterparts, so the cars' response was more linear and predictable. Bla bla bla. The point: all the older european specialty cars I have owned are rock solid and extremely reliable. In my experience, the single most important factor/decider is a simple one: do you have a mechanic. All the maintenence prior is great, but was it done by a mechanic that knew and understood the car? And will you continue to use the same mechanic or one similar? Are you willing to spend more than a typical car payment on maintenence and mods? It you do have a mechanic and can/will keep it up, the. 170k miles is not a big deal. Repairing/ overhauling the engine (if done before it breaks) will be pricey, but straightforward. If it blows up, its a $12k motor. All the suspension parts should be easy for a seasoned mechanic to work on. Usually all bolts come off fine (they used good anti-corrosion coatings), but they will be pricey and repair work will be expensive. Just not anymore expensive as any suspension work on an american car. At those miles it either got them replaced already or will need to soon. A friend and owner of one of these cars (and many other europeans, mainly porsche) said "Well, if it does not have a bunch of codes on, and its running / sounding right, sure. Its a $12000 motor when its blown up. If he's paying $10-12 grand for it sure...they will be expensive cars in a few years..." I hope to own one someday!

 


Jib-  This is very fascinating perspective, thank you for adding it to the discussion.  I do have a rock-solid mechanic that I have a high level of trust with (Matrix Integrated).  They have gone the extra mile for me time and again for 12 years now.    


 


This discussion is going on across a few forums now, and I have gained some great perspective from the replies.  At this point, I'm leaning more towards a vehicle with more life to live before I even have to consider an engine rebuild.  Thinking along the lines of a B7 RS 4 at this point; it does many of the things the M5 would do: beastly performance, great styling, and can haul the family with groceries.  In contrast to the BMW, it would be more costly up front, but also has more life to give before it is worn down and in need of so many expensive repairs.

 

[jlb85]

Rcrew, you are doing it the right way! Take your time to make the decision, and don't let the "rare" get to you, there will always be something on sale. I feel the cars find me once I am ready. And when I try to rush it I end up flipping them or getting rid of them soon.

I love rs4's! I should ask a friend/client about his, see what his experience is. It sounds like with that mechanic you can't go wrong either way!

Make sure to post up when you get it

 

[imported_Rcrew]

Thanks Jib-


Would love to hear your friend's opinion.

I'm thinking about a '10-12 S4 too. Bit newer, still excellent performance, great looks, better mileage, some warranty left...