nothing against clay

I

imported_mirrorfinishman

New member
I normally would not post a private message, however I thought some people might find this interesting as someone was asking me about why I do not use clay. Below is the original message, followed by my reply.



.....wrote on 01-11-2005 03:10 PM:

Frank, it sounds like you do not believe it clay at all. How come? I admit I have only clayed about 3 cars, 2 new ones and 1 used one and was really impressed with the results. I read opinions here and agree with its ability to remove contamination easily so why would a guy with your knowledge be against it?
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Thanks for the PM. It's really not that I am against using clay. I am sure, from everything that I read, that it works very well. However I think it is just that over the years I have been able to figure out other ways of getting the same results. You see, when you are operating a detailing business, it really all comes down to doing whatever it takes to satisfy your customers. My customers could really care less about how I achieve the results. All that matters to them is that I am able to get the results they are looking for. It is really that simple.



Think about it this way. Before there was clay; how do you think professional detailers were able to remove surface contamination? Of course the answer is easy. There have always been plenty of paint cleaning type products available by almost all of the leading manufacturers. What is interesting to me is that there is so very little talked about on most detailing forums regarding these paint cleaners. For example, I like to use Meguiar's Professional products exclusively. And of course, Meguiar's supplies a full line-up of paint cleaners.



Like I said before, from what I read, I am sure I could get good results with clay. But the way I see it, if it is not broken, there is really no reason to fix it. When you are in business, sometimes you just have to go with what works until you figure out how to incorporate new changes. I guess I am at that stage where sooner or later I will get around to seeing what clay is all about. Until then, I will continue to do what it takes to get results and make sure that I am completely satisfying my customers.
 
Frank-I thought the same until I tried using clay. It is a huge time saver and gets the paint glass smooth without having to use abrasive products. You ought to at least try it out and see what you think. Meguiars blue clay would be an excellent place to start.
 
If its not broke, dont fix it...



I understand what you are saying exactly! But maybe (im not sure) claying is quicker to then using a paint cleaner. Ive never used a paint cleaner, but I have used clay and it does not take long at all.



But then again, if your looking at a price prospective, paint cleaner may possibly be cheaper.
 
Yeah when it comes to price, paint cleaner is cheaper and the product supply can last longer.



However,I would always have both around much like I do with towels : both cotton terry and mfs ( of various weaves)
 
Of course there is always the risk that Frank's customers could arrive to pick up their cars and be excited to find them prettier and shinier than he's ever gotten them ever before.



You certainly can't consider the customer to be knowledgeable enough to know what clay is and its benefits.



Old dogs and new tricks. We've all heard that.



I agree with Scottwax, "You ought to at least try it out and see what you think".



I now wonder how I ever got along without the clay. It produces such fantastic results.
 
I'm actually quite amazed that a modern detailer can perform all the proceses of removing surface contamination without using clay. I used it once and immediately vowed to always have it on hand. It's a true time saver and on some paint problems the only solution, I, personally am aware of. I think it's about time to try something new for a change. Sure it's not broken, but maybe there is room for a new product?
 
I never used clay until June. After using it once I was sold. I had never felt paint that smooth in my life.



I remember going to my first meet up of Atlanta Solara owners in August. Someone felt my paint and compared it to glass. Then everyone had to feel it. Within a week I had two people ask me, a hobbyist, to help them detail their cars.



I clayed my car again in late October, partly because I was doing a full detail and partly because after claying the cars of a few friends I new that my technique had improved. I went to another Solara meeting and tagged along with a few folks to a SE Lexus Owners Club meeting. My friend Rene made everyone feel my paint because he thought it was too smooth & slick - I had to break out a QD to get rid of the fingerprints. Two more people asked me to help them with their cars.



The excitement of someone else over the smoothness of my paint makes me feel good. Just like seeing someone do a double take in the parking lot at how shiny and reflective I've gotten silver to look.
 
When you use a paint cleaner instead of clay, don't you end up with a smooth, but slightly gritty surface? I would think the cleaner would have a hard time with any embedded contaminants.
 
IMO paint cleaners will not remove the contamination that clay will. I have had several light colored vehicles. Rust blooms and surface contamination are very noticeable on light colors. Before I started using clay I used paint cleaners and abrasives to remove the contamination. The results can't compare to what I can do with clay. The clay removes almost all of the contamination and in a fraction of the time that it took me with paint cleaners. It's also much more gentle than using abrasives.



I remember the first time I used clay. I was having a hard time removing all the rust blooms and black spots that accumulate on the rear bumper. I tried several cleaners and lots of elbow grease and I probably removed about 5% of the contamination. I then used abrasives and this was a little better but at the expense of my clear coat. There had to be a better way. Bought my first clay bar (3M) and removed the contamination on my rear fender in less than 5 minutes. I now spot clay almost every wash.





I don't understand why a professional detailer wouldn't use the best tools he has available to him. By not using clay you are not cleaning the paint as well as you could and by using abrasives inplace of clay you get more aggressive than you need to be. IMO this is a disservice to your customer. They might not care but you should.
 
The time you spend reading about it could've been spent trying it out. In less than 5 minutes you would be able to make up your mind about whether or not you think clay is worth using.



Since you run a successful detail shop, what's $10 for clay and 5 minutes for a little R&D? :)
 
I suspect Frank is looking at this like I used to with machine polishing. I'd been doing it so long by hand and getting great results, I just couldn't see investing in a rotary (I'd never heard of a Porter Cable prior to Autopia) and risk burning paint or leaving swirls. It had been years since I took a paint and body class and used a rotary so I didn't have much confidence in my ability.



I detailed a car for dboat and I tried out his PC on the Mustang he used to have. I was amazed at how easy it was to use, no swirls and it really polished the paint well and the paint seemed to have a more intense shine as well. After that, I was sold on the benefits of machine polishing.



Sometimes you just need to try something new. If it works, you can take your detailing to a new level. If it doesn't work you haven't lost much and then at least you have tried it.
 
Iâ€â„¢m probably among the â€Ëœolder dogsâ€â„¢ on this forum; the method for removing imbedded contaminants that we used â€Ëœback thenâ€â„¢ was either polish or chemical paint cleaner. The â€Ëœplay doughâ€â„¢ from Japan was ignored when it was imported (1990) that is until I went to pick up a BMW in Germany. The detailing guys were using clay (the Germans would not release a vehicle that had any contaminants on the paint). I asked them if they thought it was a better method than polish or chemical, his reply was that polish removed clear coat and chemical cleaners would not remove imbedded contaminants. After a ten minute tutorial on the use of clay I was convinced how quick and easy it was to use and how smooth the paint surface felt, this â€Ëœold dogâ€â„¢ has been using it ever since.



For me Iâ€â„¢ve never brought in to â€Ëœif it ainâ€â„¢t brokeâ€Â¦Ãƒ¢Ã¢â€š¬Ã¢â€ž¢ Progress / improvements in technology will â€Ëœfixâ€â„¢ almost anything
 
I keep my car so clean that I hardly ever need to use clay, but I recently used it on a VERY dirty white car and it removed surface contaminants within seconds. I haven't tried polishes or any other abrasives to remove contaminants....why should I? Clay works wonders.
 
raymond_ho2002 said:


Since you run a successful detail shop, what's $10 for clay and 5 minutes for a little R&D? :)
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I will second this great suggstion! What is 5 minutes and 1 few bucks spent to do R&D? ;)



As a new detailer I was willling to try everything, but the idea of a dough didn't sound too convincing. One panel was enough to clear the doubt! Very smooth, and my dad even thought it looked shinier (possible, as I used quick detailer for lubrication) A new horizon was open.



Clay before a paint cleaner is a killer combo! :up
 
AlexRuiz said:
my dad even thought it looked shinier (possible, as I used quick detailer for lubrication)
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Actually, the clay removing imbedded contaminents is more responsible than the QD. Clay as you wash and you will see what I mean. :)
 
My 63 Caddy was in the shop for a year and the paint was affected by fallout. Not so much that you could see, but you could feel it. Like eggshell paint vs. gloss. I tried Meg's cleaner wax and that didn't help.



I had used clay on my wife's Passat a few years ago with great results, but didn't think it would touch the fallout, since is was a thin layer of whatever and not bits and pieces of stuff stuck to the paint.



I bought the P21S and the FPII figuring that everyone says to start light and move to more aggressive stuff. P21S Cleanser did nothing but turn my white pad pink, which I then assumed was the color of the fallout. Since the surface was still rough, I polished the same patch with FPII. It came out squeaky clean, the next white pad turned pink but STILL rough.



As I was reaching for the 3M fine cut, I looked at the clay in my supply box and figured, what the heck? I hit the paint with the clay and the clay immediately turned red. Three strokes and the paint was as smooth as when it came out of the booth. I did the whole car, and the shine even before lsp was noticeably better.



If I wasn't before, I am now a clay evangelist. Go ahead, don't try it, but it was sure easier using the clay than the pc on the whole 20 foot car.



Jason
 
Frank, I understand the hesitation in your wanting to spend the time and money to use clay for surface contaminant removal. If your current setup of using a paint cleaner by machine produces the results that appease by your clients then what is the possible benefit to spending more time and money? The answer is simple, just because your typical customer is not aware of the extra benefits and may never even feel the slick surface that clay leaves you may be neglecting the complete removal of contaminants. This is only my opinion, and I am by no means a "professional" being that I average 3 cars per week, but what I do is provide a service to my customers. I was brought up to value providing the best possible service for my customers money, and if this means spending an extra 30 minutes to get the job done to the fullest extent then so be it. I also have paint cleaners but feel that if the surface merits the use of clay removal there is no reason to cut corners and skip the claying step just because they are not going to notice. Do yourself a favor and give the clay a shot, I bet that you will be so happy with the process that you'll make it part of your everyday setup.
 
Mirrorfinishman,



I find it hard to believe that a pro who has been in the business since the 80's (if I remember correctly) has not tried clay. You read about it all the time on detailing forums. I'm sure product reps have mentioned it to you. You probably have detailing friends who use it. I would think somebody who details for a living would at some point be curious as to what clay can do and give it a try. I mean even for 5 minutes on a hood or something. It seems to me you are making a point of not trying it.
 
I missed out on the benefits of clay for a long time because I was discouraged from using it by an article by the owner of present day carcareonline. I tried it once and it was clear as day to me that it should be a staple in any pro or enthusiast's arsenal. A quality paint cleaner should also never be excluded.
 
Clay all the way!



I agree with Paul's comment that a cleaner is unable to remove the embedded contaminants that clay can. Also from Steve, if the cleaner is abrasive to any degree, then paint may be unnecessarily removed. IMO the benefits of clay far outweigh any downside of the product. I believe some sound advice has been put forth from the posts herein.



I used to recall spending a couple of hours on a white car removing contamination by hand. If I only knew then what I know now. Clay is a necessity for me.
 
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