Most misunderstood aspect of chemistry

Bunky

Bunky

Detailing Gnosis
I have a question for Dr. G.

On detailing forums, there are some that state they are chemists (or associated with them) and then plenty of some that think they are. We often try to make predictions on products by the MSDS sheets (for those product makers that willingly provide them) that may list only 10% of the ingredients.

My question is what do you think is the most misunderstood about chemistry.

I think the biggest areas of debate are pH (balanced vs neutral) and how to strip LSP. One company claims any of their general soaps used can strip when used in higher concentrations.

The second aspect is how to prove (at least to settle some debates) whether the LSP has been stripped.
 
Bunky said:
I have a question for Dr. G.

On detailing forums, there are some that state they are chemists (or associated with them) and then plenty of some that think they are. We often try to make predictions on products by the MSDS sheets (for those product makers that willingly provide them) that may list only 10% of the ingredients.

My question is what do you think is the most misunderstood about chemistry.

I think the biggest areas of debate are pH (balanced vs neutral) and how to strip LSP. One company claims any of their general soaps used can strip when used in higher concentrations.

The second aspect is how to prove (at least to settle some debates) whether the LSP has been stripped.
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Bunky,

[FONT=&quot]There are a large number of marketing concepts that have been brought into the car care industry from the cosmetics market which are irrelevant and misused. My favorite one is the concept of “feeding your paint” by using almond meal and banana oil in automotive products. However, we all know that paint is not alive and you can not feed it!
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[FONT=&quot]Another good example is SPF rating which is designed for sun screens and has no correlation with automotive paint. The automotive paint industry categorizes UV absorbers based on their half life. The UV absorbers used in cosmetics, regardless of their SPF ratings, have a half life of a few hours and need to be reapplied several times a day, while those used in the automotive industry, which are also used in the Optimum Car Care products, have a minimum half life of 5 years!
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[FONT=&quot]The balanced pH falls in this category also since it relates to matching the pH of product to the pH of the recommended substrate. For instance, if the pH of skin is 5.5, a pH balanced skin lotion is buffered to have a pH of around 5.5. For automotive applications again there is no correlation and it is more dependent on the product requirements. Of course any product with high (caustic) or low (acidic) pH should be used with caution and rinsed after use.
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[FONT=&quot]To remove waxes , sealants, and oils you can use detergents, solvents, or degreasers. The higher the concentration of these products, the more effective they become, however, they can also become more aggressive. Once all waxes, sealants, and oils are removed, paint surface should be squeaky clean. [/FONT]

David,
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Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question.

Can a ph balanced shampoo (like Optimum Car wash) reduce the LSP (wax, sealant)
when used a say a 5x concentration such as 5 ounces per gallon?

This is really a question about if the soap has a pH higher than say 7-8 and relies on dilution to make it the desired pH. I had seen a comment that ph typically drops by 1 ph for each 100x dilution.

For example, ph 11 at straight theb ph 10 at 1:100 dilution, etc.
 
Bunky said:
Thanks for the answer. I have a follow up question.

Can a ph balanced shampoo (like Optimum Car wash) reduce the LSP (wax, sealant)
when used a say a 5x concentration such as 5 ounces per gallon?

This is really a question about if the soap has a pH higher than say 7-8 and relies on dilution to make it the desired pH. I had seen a comment that ph typically drops by 1 ph for each 100x dilution.

For example, ph 11 at straight theb ph 10 at 1:100 dilution, etc.
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Bunky,

pH is actually base 10 logarithmic scale so for every 10x dilution, it changes by 1 point and 100x dilution will change it by 2 points toward neutral pH (7.0). Once pH is 7.0, additional dilution will not change it anymore.

In general pH of 6-8 is considered neutral which is the pH of Optimum Car Wash. What removes lsp is more dependent on detergency and less on pH. Higher concentration of surfactants will also increase their detergency. Basically, soaps are a combination of surfactants which include cleaners, foamers, foam stablizers, and chelating agents. Cleaners are the main component of soap and depending on the type, they can have low, medium, or high detergency. Car wash soaps in general and Optimum Car Wash in particular, have cleaners with very low detergency that are high in lubricity. Foamers are added since consumers equate foam with cleaning and lubrication and there are no real benefits. Foam stablizers are added for the same reason.

I am not sure why you are so focused on soap since polymer based washes such as No Rinse are much better in terms of cleaning and protecting paint from marring. Furthermore, No Rinse washes do not remove lsp but add additional protection.

David,
 
The foam cannon crowd must be in shock...to know that foamers offer no real benefits other than stroking the consumers appetite for more of it.
 
silverfox said:
The foam cannon crowd must be in shock...to know that foamers offer no real benefits other than stroking the consumers appetite for more of it.
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I've been preaching that message since day 1. The only thing using a foam cannon is good for would be photo opp's for a website/thread trying to sell to the individual who doesn't know any better, but thinks it looks cool/effective

When I see a detailer promoting the use of a FC I can tell I am viewing someone with very little knowledge of this trade. It's typically pretty funny too I might ad ...


Back to your regular scheduled programming


:swirly:
 
Dr. G said:
I am not sure why you are so focused on soap since polymer based washes such as No Rinse are much better in terms of cleaning and protecting paint from marring. Furthermore, No Rinse washes do not remove lsp but add additional protection.
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I was asking about soaps since there is a lot of discussion in detailing community on how to strip waxes and sealants. This is important to some because they believe apply a new wax or sealant should be applied a perfectly clean surface and not have to use a chemical like a pre-wax cleaner to remove it. They would prefer to apply a product in some broadcast manner (like through a foam cannon) to achieve this.

I asked about Optimum soap in highly concentrated form because I would guess you would not comment on other companies' products. Some representing another car product company make a big deal that highly concentrated car soaps STRIP waxes and sealants.

From your response, in Optimum soap, the detergency is increased but still no idea if it will significantly reduce to achieve the goal I mentioned above. Optimum No Rinse does not have detergents so at any dilution it will not affect the wax/sealant.

There is plenty of marketing misinformation and just trying to get your opinion.
 
Unfortunately marketing and perception trumps chemistry and reality most of the time....especially in an undisciplined, unregulated, free for all industry.
 
silverfox said:
Unfortunately marketing and perception trumps chemistry and reality most of the time....especially in an undisciplined, unregulated, free for all industry.
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When selling any product, marketing is always behind everything. I just wish some that do know would reveal more about the chemistry. I know some companies, like Meguiars, always says judge a product by what it does and not is what is in it but people are inquisitive especially when you have 6 zillion car washes available for sale. This leaves some predicting a product's performance based upon the MSDS sheet (when they are shared and many do not readily share them) that often just list 5 to 10% of actually what is in it.
 
Biochem major here. pH is complex, but some are interested, so I'll try to explain acid based reactions. pH is part of the equation in predicting how an acid (or base) will react, but of at least equal importance are molarity (concentration), whether it's buffered (a buffer is something you add to a solution to help it maintain it's pH when other chemicals act upon it, generally more important with weak acid or bases), and contact (you can pour a gallon of anything on your car, but most of it falls off the car, and only the micro-layer touching the clear coat can react with the clear coat. Or LSP).

Electricity analogy - pH is the "voltage," molarity/buffer/contact/volume is the "amperage." You need both to do damage. I would argue that any car shampoo has neither.

Just a quick note about all of the above. Acid (or base) is finite. Once it reacts, it's gone. So for an effective acid reaction, you either need lots of it (molarity) or you need to continually replenish it (buffer and contact/amount).

Then there is the issue of what acid works on. Acids react better on inorganics than organics. In our world, inorganics are metals. Organics are things petroleum based - clear coat, sealants, waxes. Vinegar works well on water spots because they are inorganic - the residue left over by hard water (calcium, iron, magnesium, i.e. metals). However, vinegar would take forever to do much damage to an LSP. This is a complicated discussion also, but has to do with the same forces at work whereby water will dissolve road salt (inorganic metal), but won't dissolve your LSP (organic).

I would go further than Dr. G and say that anything pH 4-10 is essentially neutral. Even then, something like vinegar has a pH of 2.4, does that scald your skin? No. pH 2.4 isn't that crazy, plus vinegar has low molarity, is unbuffered, and not enough is going to stick to your skin to bother you. If you hold your hand in a large vat of vinegar, over time, you would start to feel some irritation. But you can't mimic that situation with your car, and your clear coat or LSP is going to be more impervious to pH than your skin.

So, you wash your car. Even a non-"pH balanced" shampoo has nothing going for it to disturb your clear coat or LSP. It has essentially neutral pH (by my definition), it has low molarity, it's not buffered, very little stays on your car, and what stays on your car is not there for long. Plus, acids don't react well with organics to begin with.

Anyway, I warned you it was complex, but in the end, this is why I could not care less what the pH of my shampoo is. If it's not acidic or basic enough to burn my skin, then the pH is negligible as it concerns my LSP or clear coat. As Dr. G mentioned, the surfactants in shampoos are going to dissolve LSPs far more than any weak acids or bases.
 
Bunky,

I misunderstood your question and thought that you are concerned with car wash soaps removing waxes or sealants. But rather you are looking for a product that would remove waxes and sealants in order to prep paint for a different wax/sealants. We have developed a car wash soap for our professional markets that will remove waxes and sealants mainly to prep paint for Opti-Coat. This will be available soon and we might offer it to the consumer markets for the type of application you have described. However, as I mentioned before, the efficacy of this type of product has more to do with detergency (the ability to solublize waxes and oils) than with pH. I hope this addresses your question better.

David,

Bunky said:
I was asking about soaps since there is a lot of discussion in detailing community on how to strip waxes and sealants. This is important to some because they believe apply a new wax or sealant should be applied a perfectly clean surface and not have to use a chemical like a pre-wax cleaner to remove it. They would prefer to apply a product in some broadcast manner (like through a foam cannon) to achieve this.

I asked about Optimum soap in highly concentrated form because I would guess you would not comment on other companies' products. Some representing another car product company make a big deal that highly concentrated car soaps STRIP waxes and sealants.

From your response, in Optimum soap, the detergency is increased but still no idea if it will significantly reduce to achieve the goal I mentioned above. Optimum No Rinse does not have detergents so at any dilution it will not affect the wax/sealant.

There is plenty of marketing misinformation and just trying to get your opinion.
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This what closer to answer. I realize each soap formulation different. This is why I asked if Optimum Cash Wash full strength could strip LSP's just to set some knowledge how strong it is.
 
ammonia will definitely strip floor wax, wonder if a diluted version will safely work on painted surfaces ? think i'll let someone else give it a try. :scared:
 
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