Minimum # of Details Completed to be Considered a Pro

[Lonnie]

I look at a "professional" as someone with alot of skill and ability, along with experience. If a "professional detailer" is in the same definition as "professional athlete", then there are truly few "professional detailers". "Professional athletes" don't just become professional overnight. Not only must they have the physical make-up to be an athlete, they must possess the skill to play their sport/game at level far surpassing the "average" player/athlete and continue to refine that ability.



If I were to suggest that handling a rotary buffer is a "skill" that some people have naturally, I would be laughed at. Some would say it's a skill that can be learned.

Maybe. Based on the writing I read from individuals who are truly "professional detailers" in this forum, though, there is ALOT more that moving a pad with some compound/polish around on a paint surface. Pad speed, handle pressure, pad type, paint type and color, ambient temperature and humidity, and clearcoat thickness ALL are factors that need to be considered by "professional detailers". The "wannabe professional detailer" can gain the knowledge from reading about them in this forum, but most cannot make the tansition to "real world experience", let alone attempting to accomplish it overnight or even in a few years. Some (most!) never will.

I would LOVE to be able to detail cars to the level of those that look as good as Berry Theil, RaskyR1, Accumulator, ScottWax, or the many others of whom I have learned so much from. But it's not the equipment or products they use; it's the skill level that they apply them with that sets them above the "wannabes".

Let's just say this: "professional detailers" make a living at what they do and they stay in business because of how they apply their skills and the customer care and satisfaction that they exhibit year-after-year. They've made mistakes, maybe had to pay out-of-pocket expenses to keep a customer happy, but they're still in business. But what REALLY sets them apart is that truly "professional detailers" love what they do, and have so willingly shared their experiences on this forum. If they didn't, would they still keep doing it to the degree and with the passion that they do and then take the time to write (and post photos!) about it?

Some may look at it as bragging, but as Yogi Bera once said, "It ain't braggin' if you can do it"

 

[salty]

To be considered a pro is a lot more than paint perfection.

 

[D Tailor]

Consistency. Consistency in results, customer satisfaction, and overall excellence of service. It s the total package of skills applied with precision and consistency. One doesn't become a pro of anything with any set number of completed tasks or projects, but when others request that individual perform those tasks and complete their projects and the detailer can take on said project with the confidence of its results...that's a pro. Grace under fire and not afraid to fire Grace.

 

[Jokeman]

Paint correction beyond belief should be a required prerequisite to being a PRO....HANDS DOWN! No creativity no knowledge of vehicle finishes? Your not close to pro material by a LONG shot. I am still learning, I am in my 39th yes 39th season of auto polishing and paint rejuvenation. I have worked on Ralph Laurens Bugatti, Wet sanded the Volvo used on the TV series "get smart". I guess I give my age away. A real pro has real experience to offer ...some highway behind him. No car washer can compare. Car rental car cleaner has about a 1 percent chance of becoming a pro. He wants to know when he can get out of work and smoke blunts with his girl friend! Lets face it here.

So your saying that a guy that starts out at a dealer or a car rental place washing cars has no chance of becoming a pro? :think: Younger people gotta start somewhere. Its about drive and how much someone wants to put into learning much more than where someone starts.



Also, since "worked on Ralph Laurens Bugatti" you must be a pro? To me, all this means is your not a hack(hopefully) and are good at marketing yourself, doesn't mean your a pro. To me, there are no such things are "pros" in detailing. There are just hacks and guys that do good work.

 

[imported_agentf11]

I would rather have a hobbyist do my car than a professional. A hobbyist take pride in their work and wants to learn how to do it properly. Most professionals are just looking at the bottom line and making a living.



And by hobbyist I mean your hard core autopian type of person.



If I had to live on detailing I would starve. I would either have to raise my prices or cut corners. My average detail cost 350 and I usually spend the entire day on the car and sometimes even have a helper do the unskilled type of stuff. Not great money to live on but I enjoy detailing and an extra 350 here and there does not hurt in this economy.



Most people don't seem to want to pay what a real detail should cost. I have some people even complain about the 350 for a full paint correction. I usually explain what is involved but always hope they say no since they are not the people I want to be detailing for. I am staring to go off topic here so I will leave it at that.



Oh, and Barry, I commend you on the training. I have a friends son who just graduated from HS that helps me a lot and I tried to teach him how to use the orbital and they do not pick it up fast and what they do pick up they forget by the next time they come to help. He insisted on lifting the pad on its edge at the end of every stroke and wanted to put things like mf's on the ground. I have to watch him like a hawk. Anymore I just do it myself or like I mentioned use my helper to do the non skilled task such as vacuuming etc...

 

[Pats300zx]

I would rather have a hobbyist do my car than a professional. A hobbyist take pride in their work and wants to learn how to do it properly. Most professionals are just looking at the bottom line and making a living.



And by hobbyist I mean your hard core autopian type of person.



If I had to live on detailing I would starve. I would either have to raise my prices or cut corners. My average detail cost 350 and I usually spend the entire day on the car and sometimes even have a helper do the unskilled type of stuff. Not great money to live on but I enjoy detailing and an extra 350 here and there does not hurt in this economy.



Most people don't seem to want to pay what a real detail should cost. I have some people even complain about the 350 for a full paint correction. I usually explain what is involved but always hope they say no since they are not the people I want to be detailing for. I am staring to go off topic here so I will leave it at that.

Well said Frank...:clap:

 

[a_guerrajr]

I would rather have a hobbyist do my car than a professional. A hobbyist take pride in their work and wants to learn how to do it properly. Most professionals are just looking at the bottom line and making a living.



And by hobbyist I mean your hard core autopian type of person.



If I had to live on detailing I would starve. I would either have to raise my prices or cut corners. My average detail cost 350 and I usually spend the entire day on the car and sometimes even have a helper do the unskilled type of stuff. Not great money to live on but I enjoy detailing and an extra 350 here and there does not hurt in this economy.



Most people don't seem to want to pay what a real detail should cost. I have some people even complain about the 350 for a full paint correction. I usually explain what is involved but always hope they say no since they are not the people I want to be detailing for. I am staring to go off topic here so I will leave it at that.



Oh, and Barry, I commend you on the training. I have a friends son who just graduated from HS that helps me a lot and I tried to teach him how to use the orbital and they do not pick it up fast and what they do pick up they forget by the next time they come to help. He insisted on lifting the pad on its edge at the end of every stroke and wanted to put things like mf's on the ground. I have to watch him like a hawk. Anymore I just do it myself or like I mentioned use my helper to do the non skilled task such as vacuuming etc...

:bigups i totally agree with you.



I haven't been doing this for a long time. I don't consider myself a pro, and probably won't be for a long time. There are some people here that do amazing work, and i admire their quality. I consider my self a hobbyist, one who likes to learn from the true pros, and takes pride in achieveing pro quality. I however have a 9/5 job and don't have the time or experince to consider it a profession.



as for the #, you can't really put a # on quaility, the works speaks for it's self. people learn differently.

 

[salpac]

Not a fan of this metric. there are guys in production shops churning out hundreds and yet i wouldn't look to them as a "pro". look up this guy martin wright on youtube... he does tons of cars... hardly a pro.

 

[Accumulator]

Interesting thread.....:think:



David Fermani- You and I have, uhm... discussed who is/isn't a "professional" before, huh



Leaving aside the "pro = doing it for a living" (I generally think "expert" instead of "pro" when it comes to competence- insert Olympic Athlete analogy here) I too think that it's a bit more than how many units you've turned out.



A pro who's never dealt with old-school single stage, or nickel plating, or wool carpeting can still be a pro in every positive sense of the term, but keep him away from certain vehicles! And a pro who's *only* dealt with those... [flip side argument].



But IMO a true "pro" would know his limitations and be able to expand his abilities as needed to deal with new situations.



I dunno...I kinda dislike saying that a [what Autopians would call "hack"] doing this stuff for a living, and supporting himself and his family through satisfied customers, is not a professional. There are all different types of "professional detailers" IMO.



OK, enough of my rambling...

 

[brwill2005]

I would rather have a hobbyist do my car than a professional. A hobbyist take pride in their work and wants to learn how to do it properly. Most professionals are just looking at the bottom line and making a living.



And by hobbyist I mean your hard core autopian type of person.



If I had to live on detailing I would starve. I would either have to raise my prices or cut corners. My average detail cost 350 and I usually spend the entire day on the car and sometimes even have a helper do the unskilled type of stuff. Not great money to live on but I enjoy detailing and an extra 350 here and there does not hurt in this economy.



Most people don't seem to want to pay what a real detail should cost. I have some people even complain about the 350 for a full paint correction. I usually explain what is involved but always hope they say no since they are not the people I want to be detailing for. I am staring to go off topic here so I will leave it at that.



Oh, and Barry, I commend you on the training. I have a friends son who just graduated from HS that helps me a lot and I tried to teach him how to use the orbital and they do not pick it up fast and what they do pick up they forget by the next time they come to help. He insisted on lifting the pad on its edge at the end of every stroke and wanted to put things like mf's on the ground. I have to watch him like a hawk. Anymore I just do it myself or like I mentioned use my helper to do the non skilled task such as vacuuming etc...

I will make a few assumptions here. So you are probably a hobby detailer, right? You also probably have a negative feeling about the 'professionals' in this industry as well. So that would explain your comment about wanting to have a hobbyist detail your car instead of a pro. Some, who DO this for a living, are concentrated on offering a quality product and excellent customer service. This is simply good long term business sense, and will help one grow a large loyal customer base. In addition, full time professionals often have superior equipment than a hobbyist would have. So, I would disagree that a hobbyist could produce as good of a job as a real professional. There are of course exceptions to this rule.

 

[Flashtime]

10,000 hours.



http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article4969415.ece

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Paint correction beyond belief should be a required prerequisite to being a PRO....HANDS DOWN! No creativity no knowledge of vehicle finishes? Your not close to pro material by a LONG shot. I am still learning, I am in my 39th yes 39th season of auto polishing and paint rejuvenation. I have worked on Ralph Laurens Bugatti, Wet sanded the Volvo used on the TV series "get smart". I guess I give my age away. A real pro has real experience to offer ...some highway behind him. No car washer can compare. Car rental car cleaner has about a 1 percent chance of becoming a pro. He wants to know when he can get out of work and smoke blunts with his girl friend! Lets face it here.

Turns in pro card... :nervous2:



Just kidding..



I know a lot of guys who think that they know what they are talking about, and impress those who don't know, but really have no clue.



I don't think a professional is one who spends x amount of time or knows how to do paint correct, or whatever else...



I think a professional is somebody who meets or exceeds his customer's expectations and needs in an honest manner. This goes from the detail shop/car wash down the street to the guy getting cars ready from Pebble Beach.

 

[Accumulator]

10,000 hours...

IIRC, 10K hours is considered the amount of time generally required to attain a standard level of expertise in most any field. There's some book on the subject that I skimmend through, but I can't remember the details...something like "The Myth of Natural Ability" or "The Myth of the Natural" or something like that.



Grumble, I oughta be able to recall that :think:

 

[Scottwax]

There really isn't an answer to this other than "at least one". How does one define "pro" beyond simply charging for your work?

 

[Flashtime]

Accumulator, here's brief video:



YouTube - Malcolm Gladwell Outliers



Malcolm Gladwell | Profile on TED.com (awesome site)

 

[Barry Theal]

Interesting thread.....:think:



David Fermani- You and I have, uhm... discussed who is/isn't a "professional" before, huh



Leaving aside the "pro = doing it for a living" (I generally think "expert" instead of "pro" when it comes to competence- insert Olympic Athlete analogy here) I too think that it's a bit more than how many units you've turned out.



A pro who's never dealt with old-school single stage, or nickel plating, or wool carpeting can still be a pro in every positive sense of the term, but keep him away from certain vehicles! And a pro who's *only* dealt with those... [flip side argument].



But IMO a true "pro" would know his limitations and be able to expand his abilities as needed to deal with new situations.



I dunno...I kinda dislike saying that a [what Autopians would call "hack"] doing this stuff for a living, and supporting himself and his family through satisfied customers, is not a professional. There are all different types of "professional detailers" IMO.



OK, enough of my rambling...

:har: What does this guy know anyway? :LOLOL:usa

 

[WAS]

These topics are tough for me, lol, I have to wear a flame suit everytime I post



To those of you that say a detailer needs to be able to do do proper paint correction in order to be a professional: Why do you say that ?



I'll give an example I gave in a similar thread a few weeks ago. You're doing some furniture re-decorating and need a new electrical outlet installed in your living room. You hire a "professional" electrician to do the work. Now, that electrician may very well be an apprentice. He or she may very well know the building code regulations on maximum circuit distance, maximum drops per circuit, and maximum splices. He or she may have done this many times before, been taught the correct method in doing it, and can perform the task to all known standards and regulations.



Now, can that same electrician install a 3-phase 240V electric motor ? Or splice 60 amps from a 347 amp 3-phase breaker box and bring it to a new panel in an adjacent building ? How about setting up in parallel dual 12V, 15 amp heat trace for industrial sewer line ? An apprentice wouldn't have learned these things yet, so are they allowed to call themselves a professional electrician ? Would you question them as a professional ?



It's the same argument that can be applied to detailers. Some detailers are extremely good at interiors, but don't have much experience with paint correction. Does that make them hacks ? Does it make them any less of a detailer, just because they don't possess the skills and practice needed for that particular part of detailing ?



As for the actual question posed about how many details it takes to be a pro, well, you have to obviously have done at least 1. Otherwise, a professional is more about attitude than number of cars completed. Standing behind your work is one of the top things on my list, and also knowing your skill level and abilities is another one. I know where my paint correction skill level starts and ends, and I have told customers in the past (when I was still learning a lot) that I might not be the best choice for what they needed done.

 

[Scottwax]

I think to be considered a true pro you should have a track record of satisfying paying customers. That means someone who corrects finishes for 2-3 cars a month, spending 3-4 days total on each car and someone who does a quality basic details as their main source of income are both meeting their customers expectations and giving them good value for their money.

 

[Greg Gellas]

Main source of income....Its not easy to start doing that...Have to show your work for a little to prove you know what your doing no? Know what I mean, everyone starts somewhere.... I may not have the most posts, or have done Hundreds of details on other peoples cars, but I am a car enthusiaist and been doing my own cars for 15+ years, has to count for somthing no?

 

[JohnKleven]

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