Menzerna 203s vs M105

[solekeeper]

Can you guys shed some light on these 2 compounds? I do use m105 regularly, and it does have alot of cut..



I would like to follow up with the meznerna, i also read around that this polish can be used with a few different pads... and could possibly finish down LSP ready?





Just curious about the cutting differences in the two..





thanks guys!

 

[Darkstar752]

P203S isn't a compound, it's a medium polish. It can cut a good amount with a compound pad, finish down nicely with a polishing pad and almost never needs to be followed up on a finishing pad. Good for 1-steps or as the first step when a compound isn't needed.



M105 is a compound and will almost always need following up.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

Can you guys shed some light on these 2 compounds? I do use m105 regularly, and it does have alot of cut..



I would like to follow up with the meznerna, i also read around that this polish can be used with a few different pads... and could possibly finish down LSP ready?





Just curious about the cutting differences in the two..





thanks guys!

The abrasives in M105 are likely much finer than the abrasives in PO203s and ultimately it has the potenital to deliver a better/near identical finish to PO203s. If you use PO203s I would recommend wiping the surface several times with alcohol to inspect. I know GMblack3a (Bryan Burnworth) said it usually takes him 3-5 times of wiping the surface with alcohol to fully reveal the surface that PO203s leaves behind.



Here is an article I wrote on a different forum that may help you achieve a better finish from M105 and allow you to go to a direct final polish that should leave behind a better finish such as Menzerna PO85rd.

Finishing with Meguiar’s M105 Ultra Cut Compound



The unique ability of Meguiar’s M105 Ultra Cut Compound to remove scratching and surface defects from paint and leave a remarkably nice finish (while working quickly) has been widely publicized, whether by use with a dual-action (orbital) polisher or with a direct drive rotary polisher. The versatility of this compound isn’t limited to its intended role however: The unique, micro-fine abrasives in M105 are so refined in fact that they are often finer (much) then the fully exhausted abrasives in a traditional diminishing abrasive polish!



This allows M105 to create a truly high gloss, micro scratch free surface that potentially rivals the highest gloss finishes created with other methods and finishing techniques. As an added benefit, the finishing techniques used to achieve that result can save time and help eliminate any chance of unwanted defect return.



Process Overview:



I will be focusing on using M105 with Meguiar’s Softbuff 2.0 pads as well using a dual-action (orbital) polisher. The process I use for finishing M105 consists of taking advantage of Meguiar’s unique abrasives by switching pads (or machines) half way through the process, as explained below. If the entire paint system has already been polished and only light machine marks remain then simply start with the finishing pad.



Step One: Select the appropriate polishing and finishing pads. For the sake of simplicity I am going to use both Meguiar’s Softbuff 2.0 Foam Cutting pad as well as their Softbuff 2.0 Foam Finishing pad. When polishing with a dual-action polisher, I still prefer the more aggressive action from a smaller pad.

Step Two: Prime each pad with the M105 buffing liquid. This is particularly important for two reasons.



How to prime: Squirt a liberal (but not excessive) amount of product over the pad and immediately begin to work it with your fingers. The goal is coat the face of the pad with product evenly. Allow the polish to permeate the pad for several minutes then remove the excess polish by running the machine and pressing a towel into or using compressed air.

Why is priming important?



For two reasons:

1) When working with non-diminishing abrasives our cutting power limited to how many abrasives can contact the paint at one time (effective surface area). If only two of these fine abrasives are working at a given time we are losing a lot of potential cutting area vs. if two hundred thousand of these fine abrasives are working in unison



2) Perhaps more importantly for this write up, you want the most microscopically uniform surface available. If you have ever used Meguiar’s Uni-Grit sand paper vs. more traditional abrasive papers would will immediately understand. A more uniform polishing surface creates a more uniform (microscopically level) polished surface. The picture below (from Meguiar’s) illustrates the difference between traditional sanding papers and Meguiar’s Unigrit sanding disks. It is easy to see which will create a higher gloss surface at the microscopic level.

By priming the finishing pad adequately you create a more uniform finishing surface which translates into a higher gloss, micro swirl free finish.



Step Three: Use M105 and a DA in combination with a primed polishing/cutting pad to remove surface defects:



Work a small section, between 2’ x 2’ and 3’ x 3‘, depending on your goals, the contours of the body panel, and size of your polishing pad. If the paint requires more correction consider shrinking the working section to allow more focused polishing.



A lot has been written about various techniques and methods for defect removal with Meguiar’s M105 and a dual-action (orbital) polisher so I will offer the following guidelines.



Use enough downward pressure on the head of the machine to engage the pad evenly across the body panel and ensure that the orbital machine is transferred through the pad, to the paint’s surface. Larger and taller pads will require more pressure then a smaller, shorter pad because there is more area absorbing the motion. (Similar to a bowl of Jell-O giggling on itself).



Keep your arm speed constant through out the process and don‘t rush. Two inches per second is a great guideline to get started, but like pressure, this is going to be highly dependant on user preference. A little experimentation will so dial you in.



M105 is unique in the fact that it will continue to polish well, even when a product film is no longer present on the paint. However you should check the pad by touch to ensure it is still damp, and inspect the paint by sight to make sure you are still removing defects. If the pad becomes dry to the touch, or you notice that the either the finish quality is degrading or it is no longer effectively removing defects, add more M105. Once the pad is primed you do not need to add at lot. A couple of drops, smear it in with your thumb, and off you go.



Clean your cutting pad frequently, after each section if possible. You can use a brush or towel pressed into the pad (while the machine is running slowly) or compressed air if possible.



Why clean your pad frequently?



The main draw back in achieving a great finish from M105 is not from the polish but from the paint! Abraded paint (polished off the surface) will contaminate the solution and cause the ultra-fine abrasives in M105 to clump to together, creating an uneven polishing surface and degrading the quality of finish achieved. While this is not as important in the polishing/cutting stage as it would be in the finishing stage, I still like to bring the surface to the highest quality possible in each stage. This possibly reduces the work needed on subsequent steps (this is true for all faucets of detailing).



Step Four: Do not remove the residue from the paint when you are doing removing defects from the section unless there is excessive dried residue.



Step Five: Remove any micro marring and achieve a very high gloss finish with M105 in conjunction with a primed and clean finishing pad and a dual action (orbital) polisher. Only add more product to the finishing pad if it becomes dry, and only then a very small amount. However do keep the finishing pad clean! Buff right over the existing residue on the paint.



Because constantly swapping pads isn’t always fun it helps if you have two random orbital polishers. Alternatively you can polish a few sections before switching finishing. Just use common sense and don’t allow the polish to dry on the paint by waiting too long, such as on a very hot day.



Traditional finishing techniques on a dual action (orbital) polisher don’t lend themselves too well to finishing with M105, nor with final polishing in general, in my opinion. This would include reducing pressure and allowing the pad to rotate quickly over the paint.



Don’t reduce pressure and encourage a higher rotational pad speed to ‘jewel’ the paint with a DA and M105. In fact this can cause some unwanted side effects.



Reducing pressure will reduce the orbital motion transferred to the polishing surface from the machine, as the pad will absorb it. We want enough pressure to take up any slack in the pad.



Secondly, when you reduce pressure you will increase the pad’s rotational speed. As the diagram below illustrates, a higher rotational speed in conjunction with the pushing and pulling action for the orbits will cause the pad’s actions to become more abrupt. Instead of a gentle curly-que you will have a more jagged V shape, similar to digging your heal in the ground and pivoting 270 degrees; only in the case of polishing paint it is an abrasive grain that has attached itself to the polishing pad and is being ground into the paint.



The difference in patterns between slow pad speed (top) and a higher rate of rotation (bottom).

Lastly, reducing pressure causes the pad to engage the apint unevenly. As the pad is forced in different directions by the quick, short orbital action and the long sweeping rotational action, different areas of the polishing surface are subjected to different amounts of pressure and cutting action. To create a high gloss, micro scratch free surface you need make the paint as even and as smooth as microscopically possible. Reducing pressure and encouraging more pad rotation is similar to wet sanding paint with your finger tips instead of using a foam block. A sanding block will engage all of the abrasive grains evenly and allow for a more uniform finish. Sanding with your finger tips will cause gouging and a very uneven surface.



Instead of reducing pressure, keep your pressure constant (enough to encourage the pad to evenly conform to the paint’s surface and body contours as well as transfer the orbital motion of the machine to the paint) but reduce speed!



Final polish on speed 3.5-4 using firm (not excessive pressure). Make two to three smooth passes over the area, over lapping each pass slightly, then remove. Continuing to make passes over the area will not increase the finish, but may contaminate the polish reducing the finish.



Wipe off the residue with a soft towel and move on.



Process in pictures:



Prime pads as illustrated in pictures above.

Cliff Notes:



1) Wash and prep vehicle as needed

2) Prime pads as needed. Always prime a pad prior to its first use.

3) Polish a small section, 2x2 or 3x3 using an aggressive pad appropriate for the level of defect removal.

4) Using the primed and clean finishing pad, polish over the remaining residue with out adding additional product (unless the pad is dry). Use slow arm movement, speed 3.5-4, and just enough pressure to engage the foam. Wipe off.



Common Questions and answers.

I don’t have two machines and it seems like a pain to switch pads frequently, can I polish the entire car with M105 then come back and finish with a softer pad?​

Yes. Polish the car as normal but make sure to remove the residue from the paint, like you normally would. Then prime a finishing pad and begin to finish using the guidelines above. The main difference is that you will need to add a small amount of additional product to the pad before each new working area. Make sure to clean you finishing pad often and switch to a clean (but primed) pad when you are no longer achieving the quality of finish.



Do I have to finish polish right after polishing each working section?



No. I would break the hood of my HHR into 4 or 5 polishing sections, and would complete most of those before coming back and final polishing the entire half of the hood. Of course dynamic conditions will effect how well this works. You don’t want to the residue to dry on the surface before final polishing over it.



I tried this technique but am not getting the quality of finish I am used to with other polishes and methods.



Don’t give up yet (if you don’t want to)! Sometimes it takes a little refinement to certain techniques to get the finish and some paint’s simply don’t respond well to certain techniques or products.



How long should it take me to final polish an area, say half of the hood of your HHR?



If you read the run-on sentence slowly and carefully it should take you about the same time as final polishing an area as large as half of the hood as it does to read this because it only takes two to three passes over the areas with light pressure, enough to engage the foam, using speed three point five to four to avoid any jagged edges, because the abrasives do not break down and are already refining the surface from the instant the machine is turned on. Or about 30 seconds.

 

[Guitarist302008]

There is no question that the 105 is a great cutting product. I've used it a few times myself... how much it dries out and how fast just turns me away.

 

[imported_sal3291]

Todd I have used that process and it works amazing thank you

 

[solekeeper]

th, thank you for all of that info.. I was under the impression that p02 is a medium cut polish..



You're saying this polish could be more harsh than m105?

 

[Todd@RUPES]

th, thank you for all of that info.. I was under the impression that p02 is a medium cut polish..

Your impression is correct. Menzerna PO203s is a meduim cut polish that will produce a nice finish on most paint systems. M105 is marketed as a cutting compound, although I would disagree with this. If we judge the polishing liquid (compound/polish/whatever) as a function of its abrasives, then M105 (IMO) would be more accurately described as a medium/finishing liquid that has the ability to be extremely aggressive.



You're saying this polish could be more harsh than m105?[/QUOTE]



Yes and no. A lot of factors determine how 'harsh' a product is. Application method being the biggest. But here is the thing....



PO203s, for optimal results, should be worked through a polishing cycle. That is the abrasives start rough and break down as friction from the polishing process breaks them apart. The only way to break the break the abrasives down is to use the friction from the polishing process, and that friction removes paint.



M105, by function of its abrasives, does not require to be broken down. So you can stop 5 seconds in, 10 seconds in, 15 seconds in, etc and still have the same resulting finish. With PO203s, if you stop polishing too early (and not break down the abrasives) then the finish will fall short of its potenital.



Since PO203s requires a certain amount of applicational friction, you are 'locked in' to removing a certain amount of material in order to achieve the highest quality results.



If you work both products identically, for the same amount of time, M105 will remove more material (most of the time). However if you work M105 for 10 seconds and are required to power PO203s for 1 minute, then PO203s (in this application) would likely remove more material.



Sorry for the long winded answer.

 

[solekeeper]

hm, i kind of see where you're going. I'm actually sanding body shop clear with 2k grit and cutting with a 3m compound, followed by m105 on several pads that leave me with about a 70-80 percent corrrected surface. (minor micro-marring, minor halogramming)



Do you think the menz p02 could remove it if i used a light cutting pad/finishing pad?



Could the p02 even be used with a finishing pad? (This way i'll have the semi-aggressiveness of the polish, but finish down well since i'll use the finsh pad)

 

[fergnation]

Todd, if you had to choose only one type of polishing pad and finishing pad for M105 which would you choose? Also, what size. I can no longer find my go to pad and thinking of actually making the change to a DA. Ive always had one and use it often but Im just so damn impatient that I end up grabbing the rotary. I have a crap load of polishing work scheduled and need to make an order.



I think its funny that everytime you post it turns into a "Dear Abby" collumn. It just shows the deserved respect this community has.

 

[porta]

Do you think the menz p02 could remove it if i used a light cutting pad/finishing pad?



Could the p02 even be used with a finishing pad? (This way i'll have the semi-aggressiveness of the polish, but finish down well since i'll use the finsh pad)

Yes and yes.

 

[imported_User Name]

Is there something wrong with my settings or did Todd's pics get cut off?