Meg's D151

I prefer D151 to Poli-Seal. As a matter of fact, I am trashing my Poli-Seal. The biggest problem I have with Poli-Seal is I can never get my pad clean enough after using it for my liking (so I end up tossing the pad)...the stuff just won't come out of the pad.



I have tried Dawn Quick Dissolver, APC, Alcohol, etc...The only thing I haven't done is to soak the freaking pad in Prep Sol.
 
weekendwarrior said:
the stuff just won't come out of the pad.



I have tried Dawn Quick Dissolver, APC, Alcohol, etc...The only thing I haven't done is to soak the freaking pad in Prep Sol.

Wouldn't that indicate excellent durability?
 
Not neccessarily...could be a number of things. The product just isn't worth me wasting a pad everytime I use it. If I am not comfortable that the pad is clean enough, I'll never use it on another painted surface.
 
OK, so I've used 151 on enough cars now to finally offer an opinion and results.



I don't like the stuff. At all.



Maybe I just had too high of hopes, because of the unbelievable results I'd gotten with M95 and M105; I was hoping the 151 would knock my socks off, too.



So here's what I've experienced so far...



In order to get decent cutting with it, I've had to use a PFW. And of course, this leaves behind (on some paints) compounding marks and holograms that then have to be cleaned up. So much for a "one step".



Following up the PFW step, I use either a white or red foam pad, depending on the hardness of the clear coat. White for hard clears, red for soft. Regardless of how hard the clear is, it requires a very large number of passes to break it down far enough to get an acceptable finish. On softer clears (Honda, etc), I'm unable to get it to finish down hologram free even with a red pad, long working time, and slow-fast-slow RPM's. On harder clears, the finish is just kinda ok. I've experimented with using UF after the 151, and the UF has *always* improved the finish dramatically over the 151.



I know that 151 is marketed as a high volume shop, one step product, but I really don't see it working particularly well for the niche it's supposed to fill.



I must be doing something wrong...Those of you that have gotten good results with this stuff, could we talk you out of sharing your process, and maybe some pics?



I don't want to write off 151 yet. It's gotta be capable of better results than what I've gotten with it. I really need help on using this stuff correctly...



Oh, as for pad cleaning, the DP yellow powder completely removes 151 from pads, as long as you soak them *before* the 151 dries.
 
SuperBee364 said:
OK, so I've used 151 on enough cars now to finally offer an opinion and results.



I don't like the stuff. At all.



Maybe I just had too high of hopes, because of the unbelievable results I'd gotten with M95 and M105; I was hoping the 151 would knock my socks off, too.



So here's what I've experienced so far...



In order to get decent cutting with it, I've had to use a PFW. And of course, this leaves behind (on some paints) compounding marks and holograms that then have to be cleaned up. So much for a "one step".



Following up the PFW step, I use either a white or red foam pad, depending on the hardness of the clear coat. White for hard clears, red for soft. Regardless of how hard the clear is, it requires a very large number of passes to break it down far enough to get an acceptable finish. On softer clears (Honda, etc), I'm unable to get it to finish down hologram free even with a red pad, long working time, and slow-fast-slow RPM's. On harder clears, the finish is just kinda ok. I've experimented with using UF after the 151, and the UF has *always* improved the finish dramatically over the 151.



I know that 151 is marketed as a high volume shop, one step product, but I really don't see it working particularly well for the niche it's supposed to fill.



I must be doing something wrong...Those of you that have gotten good results with this stuff, could we talk you out of sharing your process, and maybe some pics?



I don't want to write off 151 yet. It's gotta be capable of better results than what I've gotten with it. I really need help on using this stuff correctly...



Oh, as for pad cleaning, the DP yellow powder completely removes 151 from pads, as long as you soak them *before* the 151 dries.



I am going to ask Kevin Brown "iamwaxman" to respond to this, and see if he has any tips. I too have had less than desirable results.
 
SB..thats good info on 151. I have a sample that I was going to use on a client's car this weekend. The client just wants a simple one step and I was going to see how 151 holds up.



I was planning on using it via Flex as opposed to my rotary.
 
Pats300zx said:
SB..thats good info on 151. I have a sample that I was going to use on a client's car this weekend. The client just wants a simple one step and I was going to see how 151 holds up.



I was planning on using it via Flex as opposed to my rotary.



Good Luck. I have tested on several different cars, and the only correction I have gotten with it was on a soft Honda, and it took 2 applications with the PC and 4" pads. I don't even use it with the rotary, as I don't trust that it isn't filling or concealing holigrams - and what sense does it make to do an alcohol/presol wipedown on an AIO, and remove the protection???



EDIT - I am going to test next, adding in a little M86 (also a non diminishing abraisive) to see if it helps with the cutting ability. This would probably take away from the protection ability, but I always top an AIO with a wax or sealant anyways.
 
weekendwarrior said:
Good Luck. I have tested on several different cars, and the only correction I have gotten with it was on a soft Honda, and it took 2 applications with the PC and 4" pads. I don't even use it with the rotary, as I don't trust that it isn't filling or concealing holigrams - and what sense does it make to do an alcohol/presol wipedown on an AIO, and remove the protection???



I did that one time as an experiment to see how much concealing 151 could do. It does conceal some (as you'd expect it to), but not as well as a dedicated glaze like RMG.
 
Pats300zx said:
SB..thats good info on 151. I have a sample that I was going to use on a client's car this weekend. The client just wants a simple one step and I was going to see how 151 holds up.



I was planning on using it via Flex as opposed to my rotary.



I'd love to hear your results... I did one Mazda with a PC and 151 (teaching a relative how to use a PC), and it left a nice finish, but it didn't correct much at all. Maybe the Flex DA would be just the ticket... more correcting power than a PC, and might finish out better (hologram free) than a rotary.
 
SuperBee364 said:
I'd love to hear your results... I did one Mazda with a PC and 151 (teaching a relative how to use a PC), and it left a nice finish, but it didn't correct much at all. Maybe the Flex DA would be just the ticket... more correcting power than a PC, and might finish out better (hologram free) than a rotary.

I tried 151 the other night. I used my Flex on speed 6 with a white Sonus polishing pad. The test vehicle was a 2006 Scion tC which has a soft clear coat.

I did not get much, if any correction, with this combination.



I did mist my pad with ONR solution before I started and wonder if this contributed negatively to my first experience with it. I am certainly not going to rule the 151 out though. I will try it again.
 
I have found 151 to be a VERY useful tool in my arsenal. Especially for those clients only willing to pay for basic wash/wax packages when their cars really need polishing.



A simple example of 151's abilities were realized on an older Subaru I recently did. Customer only wanted a wash/wax on what is clearly oxidized paint. I whipped out the Flex and slapped on an older Orange 6.5" pad. I worked 151 on speed 6 then backed it down to speed 3-4 to prevent marring/swirling. It worked surprisingly well!!



Results:

Before:





During, 50/50:







After:









So there is a use for 151 in my opinion. The customer was wowed at what was acheived for such little money (Basic $150 wash/wax)



I've used 151 on white pads on the Flex and acheived so-so correction. I've been meaning to test 151-Poli-Seal but just haven't had the time. Eventually I'll post it up..
 
I had very simular results as Slicknickis - and I too used an orange pad and a PC, didn't have the Flex yet. My vehicle was a friends' thrashed red Nissan Frontier. It looked so good he got a great trade in value the next day.
 
pc orange pad and speed 6 is all that should be used IMO on one steps...wether it be poliseal, 151, 66...taking note, I have only used 66 and poliseal, not 151
 
Glad to give an opinion... thanks for contacting me weekendwarrior.



A quick call to Jason Rose of Meguiar's verified some thoughts I had about PRC. It was primarily designed to remove light to moderate defects with a rotary polisher. It had to leave the surface in very good condition while providing protection. It had to have a long application cycle but not sling, stick to the surface, or create lots of dust. It had to be easy to wipe away and not leave a white haze on textured plastics. If the shop using the product wanted to do a one-step application, it had to leave the paint looking pretty good once the protection went away. Finally, if a shop wanted to do a follow-up application with PRC, it had to further polish the surface, leaving no micro marring. A lot to consider, but overall, it seems that D151 comes pretty close to hitting the mark.



Now, just because Jason and the R&D team tailored this product for a specific type of detailing doesn't mean we shouldn't expect even more out of PRC, right?



I have some experience using D151 Paint Reconditioning Cream (PRC) but it's not my 'go-to' liquid. Therefore, I don't have the depth of knowledge that comes from using a product on a regular basis. However- I've used it a few times and I did test PRC prior to its release. I've found that increased downforce delivers impressive results. For defect removal I tend to use lower rpm and increased downforce when polishing with a rotary. The exception to this rule is when I'm using a compound to cut paint immediately after wet-sanding. To aid in leveling the paint, I run the rotary at around 1,800 prm and then back it down to 1,000-1,200 rpm to finish. Of course settings vary from car to car, but this is the norm for me.



When removing defects with the random-orbital, I use high OPM and a LOT of downforce. For final polishing, I drop the speed and continue to use a LOT of downforce (not as much as the defect-removal step, but quite a bit). I know that this is not the way things are normally done, but the most recent Meguiar's products to hit the market are using very different technologies (as compared to the older traditional style compounds and polishes). In the case of Meguiar's products, this technique has worked well for me with M86, M105, and D151.



I specifically asked about use of this product with Lake Country's Foamed Wool Pad (FWP). As I've only used the FWP a very limited amount, I cannot claim to know all of its idiosyncrasies. So- I just used it, and it seems to be a very capable pad.



I did a quick but thorough test on the fender of my 1994 Mazda pickup (original paint). I hardly ever polish or wax the thing- I just drive the wheels off it and wash it every couple weeks. Many times, I just hit it with de-ionized water and wipe it with a cotton towel (if there's time).



I took some pics- I know they're not the best, and the lighting is not ideal. The main thing is- I was able to easily remove moderate defects and leave the paint looking pretty good. Here we go:







Not great shots, but the fender is covered with light defects, and a few moderate scratches. I scuffed each side with Abralon 2000 and water.



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Left side, shows paint as-is and the Abralon scuffing.

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Right side, shows paint as-is and the Abralon scuffing.

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Rotary, foamed wool, D151 PRC.

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Prime the pad. Rub the PRC in by hand.

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Have to add more... still some dry areas.

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I think I use a bit more product to prime the pad than most guys. It's like priming a lawnmower that's run out of gas- pour some gas in the throat of the carb, pull the string until it starts. Whatever gas it doesn't use, it spits out the exhaust! Same thing with a pad prime- what the pad doesn't use for priming will sling off the pad... I'm just kidding a bit here, but there was actually very little sling (if any).



I think this is one area that is overlooked as not so important. Well, it is very important, and really makes a difference to overall performance.



Apply a bead and buff. Left side: Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool Pad / 1,800 rpm / application time- 62 seconds.

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Wipe clean, stripped 3x with Meguiar's Detailer Glass Cleaner (5:1 dilution)

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Close-up shots.

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Meguiar's W5000 Double-Sided Wool Cutting Pad. It's listed as an 8-inch pad, but edge-to-edge it's more like 10 inches. I guessed that I'd be using the pad effectively to the 8-inch diameter point.

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Lake Country Purple Foamed Wool Pad. Looks like it's almost 8 inches (Lake Country's site shows a 7 or 7-1/2 inch pad. I guessed that I'd be using the pad effectively to the 6-inch diameter point.

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Prime the pad. Rub the PRC in by hand.

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Have to add more... still some dry areas.

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A proper prime-job. This is a much bigger pad than the PFW pad.

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At this point I wanted to adjusted my polishing speed. To be fair, I figured that I should drop my speed when using the larger diameter W5000 pad. This was to adjust the velocity of the pad closer to the velocity of the PFW pad.



I used the PFW pad at 1,800 rpm. Usable area was estimated to be 6 inches. Using this formula:



RPM * C = V

where

RPM = Revolutions per minute

C = circumference <- Notice this is 2*π*r

V = velocity



I came up with: 1,800 (rpm) x 18.84 (6 x 3.14) (6" diameter times pi) = 33,912.



So, using the same formula, and a problem of: X(unknown rpm) x 25.12 (8 x 3.14) (8" diameter times pi) = 33,912 (same as the total of the PFW pad). Then, 33,912 / 25.12 = 1,350 rpm. My buffer had a speed-setting of 1,400 rpm available, so I used it. The velocity wasn't exactly the same, but close enough considering I was only guessing the diameter of the pad actually being used.



Forgot to show the bead of product applied, but it was a little more than the PFW side because the area being polished was a bit larger (needed the space for the larger pad).

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Wiped clean, stripped 3x with Meguiar's Detailer Glass Cleaner (5:1 dilution). Sun shot of the PFW side. Noticeable swirl, but not quite as bad as it looks in the pics... Some of the 'swirl' is light refraction.

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Sun shot of the W5000 side, stripped 3x with glass cleaner. Noticeable swirl, and it's obvious that the swirling is worse on this side.

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Shot of the left, masked, and right. Swirls are noticeable, but pretty fine.

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Time to fire up the random-orbital. I'm going to use a Meguiar's W8207 SoftBuff 2.0 Foam Polishing Pad.

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Prime the pad. Rub the PRC in with your hands.

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More PRC to polish with.

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I polished the entire area (working time approximately 1 minute). Residue shot.

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Wiped clean, stripped 3x with Meguiar's Detailer Glass Cleaner (5:1 dilution).

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I felt that I could get a better polishing result. So, I used a specially-sized Lake Country pad that my friend ZoranC had built for his personal use. ZoranC readily admits that the foam and sizing is nothing new, but not all levels of aggressiveness were available in this diameter and thickness. So, he ordered them up! He's actually got six foam variations. I like them (so far I've only used three of the six). I think he had to order more than he can actually use, so maybe he would sell some if the demand was there.

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I primed the pad, and worked the entire area again. Working time was approximately one minute.

Picture shows a stripped surface, wiped clean, stripped 3x with Meguiar's Detailer Glass Cleaner (5:1 dilution).

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Now, I know that I've basically done a three-step polishing job. But!- I could really bear down on this pad, comfortably. Looking back on it, I should have heeded my own advice and PUSHED a lot harder when using the W8207 pad. The main point of the final application was to show how well the PRC performed. Impressive defect removal and a pretty darn good finish. I used a variety of machines and pads- You can choose how you wish to apply PRC. The best advice I can give is super-prime the pad, and increase downward pressure when polishing. Hope this helps.
 
Kevin - how does the cutting ability and finish when using say an 8006 pad on the rotary compare to what you got with the Purple Foamed Wool? Any certain RPM range, or work time work best for the 8006 pad?
 
weekendwarrior said:
Kevin - how does the cutting ability and finish when using say an 8006 pad on the rotary compare to what you got with the Purple Foamed Wool? Any certain RPM range, or work time work best for the 8006 pad?





I don't see anywhere near the cutting power going from any string-style pad (wool, foamed wool, twisted, tufted, etc) to foam.



When removing defects with foam, I drop the speed to the 1,000-1,200 rpm range (to minimize a rapid increase in temperature due to pad velocity). Then, I increase applied downforce. This heats the paint more than light pressure, but it helps the pad to better remove the defect. Otherwise, the pad will not 'force' the abrasive onto the paint surface. The additional pressure better contours the pad to the surface, too. Think in terms of how a backing supports a piece of wet-sanding paper, helping the paper (and abrasive) better contour to the surface.



Remember- PRC uses a very refined abrasive particle, and it contains a very slippery lubrication and polymer (for protection).
 
I guess what I am looking for is the best way to get the most correction, with a non holigramed finish in 1 step. I would imagine using a smaller diameter pad, with a backing plate that contacts the majority of the pad (to even out the pressure from the down force) on the PC at speed 6 and a LOT of pressure would be the best technique to achieve all of this...(since you apparently aren't going to finish out holigram free with the Purple Wool on the rotary). Would you agree?
 
I have spent a bit of time using this product and don't get any quality results to speak of. I guess I'll try again. It is full of stuff that fills either on purpose or by accident, so the results seem to be short lived at best.



Thanks for the write up.



Cheers,
 
weekendwarrior said:
I guess what I am looking for is the best way to get the most correction, with a non holigramed finish in 1 step. I would imagine using a smaller diameter pad, with a backing plate that contacts the majority of the pad (to even out the pressure from the down force) on the PC at speed 6 and a LOT of pressure would be the best technique to achieve all of this...(since you apparently aren't going to finish out holigram free with the Purple Wool on the rotary). Would you agree?



I agree. Lots of downward pressure for one complete cycle, add a drop bit more PRC, then one or two passes at normal pressure to final polish. Done.
 
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