M105 overused?

I

imported_Ivan Rajic

New member
I spoke with a friend regarding this after I noticed it more and more on the forums and wanted the opinion of others...



It seems to me that M105 has become the 'go-to' polish for pretty much any 2-step correction and more and more, for the lack of a better word, noobs are using it... now don't get me wrong, M105 is a great product and I use it myself almost every detail (mostly by hand but also by PC in some tighter areas with bad defects) but it seems that M105 & finishing polish/second step have replaced a 2-step with something less aggressive, like SIP/M83 then a finishing polish...



I guess I'm looking at it like this... I would rather polish with a finer polish, something like SIP maybe even M80, with a medium to light cutting pad, like M8006 or LC white, then follow it with a finishing pad/polish combo... this way I get 70-80% correction with first step and the rest with 2nd... instead of getting 95-100% 'correction' with M105, then cleaning it up with M80/M205/106ff..



In short, I know that the more experienced detailers know exactly how/when to use M105 and how much cut they need from it, but aren't many people removing more paint then necessary with M105 these days, compared to using a finer polish twice?
 
I can totally see your point, but I think that as long as people are using it correctly, you actually end up removing *less* clear. I use it til the defects are gone, then use a very light weight polish (like UF, 106FF or 85RD) to finish. My choices of finishing polishes are so very light weight, you could buff them forever without removing an appreciable amount of clear.



It's just a totally different game plan with 105 since you can stop whenever you want.... get the correction you need, do a couple very light passes to get it to finish down well, then final polish.



However, your point about new guys taking off too much clear is well taken. Polishing past the point at which the correction is done will rapidly remove clear unnecessarily. This didn't used to be a problem, since the PC wasn't capable (regardless of the polish used) of doing *that* much correction/clear coat removal. Now it's a legitimate concern.
 
I guess to me it would depend on how hard the paint is and how bad the marring is.



If I was dealing with my white car (VERY HARD CLEAR COAT) and the swirling was bad, I would go with the M105 on a polishing pad and M205 or 106ff on say a Black pad because with anything lighter, I doubt I would get much of any correction but would probably get pretty good gloss afterwards.



Now, if I was working on a car with dark paint and soft clear, I would probably go with a milder combo such as SIP on white and PO85RD on Blue so as to help avoid holgrams and hazing.
 
SuperBee364 said:
I can totally see your point, but I think that as long as people are using it correctly, you actually end up removing *less* clear. I use it til the defects are gone, then use a very light weight polish (like UF, 106FF or 85RD) to finish. My choices of finishing polishes are so very light weight, you could buff them forever without removing an appreciable amount of clear.



It's just a totally different game plan with 105 since you can stop whenever you want.... get the correction you need, do a couple very light passes to get it to finish down well, then final polish.



However, your point about new guys taking off too much clear is well taken. Polishing past the point at which the correction is done will rapidly remove clear unnecessarily. This didn't used to be a problem, since the PC wasn't capable (regardless of the polish used) of doing *that* much correction/clear coat removal. Now it's a legitimate concern.
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Yea I agree, the issue here is that M105 on the PC, with pretty much any pad, when used with pressure, preferably smaller pads, etc. can remove A LOT of cc... I was testing stuff out a few days ago and the PC with a 5.5" white LC pad removed more cc/defects than rotary with 6.5" M8006 pad using M80 as the polish... I didn't apply a lot of pressure to the rotary and I did to the PC for 3-4 passes, but considering many are following KBM method of using pressure, I feel not many of these people are actually seeing the defects being removed as they should, and in the end removing more cc than necessary. Again, I'm speaking from personal experience and while it obviously depends on pressure (and pad used somewhat) the PC can definitely remove more cc than rotary





bert31 said:
I guess to me it would depend on how hard the paint is and how bad the marring is.



If I was dealing with my white car (VERY HARD CLEAR COAT) and the swirling was bad, I would go with the M105 on a polishing pad and M205 or 106ff on say a Black pad because with anything lighter, I doubt I would get much of any correction but would probably get pretty good gloss afterwards.



Now, if I was working on a car with dark paint and soft clear, I would probably go with a milder combo such as SIP on white and PO85RD on Blue so as to help avoid holgrams and hazing.
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Good for you! I don't mean that in a mean way haha even though it sounds like it... I genuinely mean good for you and your car's paint
 
I use it for my 2 steps because quite honestly, its faster and more efficient! I used to use 83/80 both on the PC with orange and white pads...since I have switched to 105/80 or 105/205 on the same orange and white pads (on the pc), my details have gotten better results in less time! Its a win win, especially on cars that are rarely detailed, are going to be turned in on a lease, or are being sold! Not everyone cares about long term paint thickness, but they want the best results each time!



The thing I think needs to be added is that a swirl/scratch is going to need compounding to remove...doesnt matter if you use 83 twice or 105 once, it needs to be removed to a certain level...I dont think that saying 105 is removing more CC than 83 just because it removes the swirling faster. the bottom of the swirling is the bottom of the swirling, doesnt matter the polished used, it still needs to be removed!
 
bert31 said:
Now, if I was working on a car with dark paint and soft clear, I would probably go with a milder combo such as SIP on white and PO85RD on Blue so as to help avoid holgrams and hazing.
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Bert

How does one find out how hard/soft the cc is on thier vehicle? I'm a "noob" and have a black 05 Cadillac CTS that has some swirls I want to remove. Do Cadillacs normaly have hard/soft paint?
 
cadillacs are generally harder from my experience....black maybe a bit softer though.



you find out by doing a test spot. take a polisher and a polishing pad and a polish, if that doesnt work, then get the next step up polish/compound. If that doesnt work get the next step up pad. if that doesnt work call in a PRO!
 
ffamousamos said:
Bert

How does one find out how hard/soft the cc is on thier vehicle? I'm a "noob" and have a black 05 Cadillac CTS that has some swirls I want to remove. Do Cadillacs normaly have hard/soft paint?
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I've never done a Caddy before, but newer GM cars do have some pretty hard clear coat.
 
Thats exactly what I plan on doing. If I have learned anything from reading the posts on this forum its that you start with the least abrassive polish you can.

I already have some 105 and 205 can you recomend a lighter polish that is under the cutting power of the 105.



Thanks
 
151 is a super light polish/wax in one...its a one step product!



if you are looking for a dedicated light polish with minimal cut, then menzerna fpII fits the bill the best I think...



my usual go to combos now...

105/orange

205/white or 80/white

151/blue or FPII/blue

collinite 845 if I use FPII
 
105 can only be overused in an uninformed persons hands. But that's not because of m105s properties. Any heavy cut compound in the wrong hands can take off too much CC.



People are using m105 so much more because what normally should be a 3 step compound, polish, final polish, can be done in two steps. Anything that should require two steps can be done faster imo with m105. Due to its cutting characteristics it will cut faster and finish better than a normal diminishing polish.



I remember seeing someone say that m105 removes too much cc because even though you stop using it once the defects are removed, you have to follow it once again with another polish. In regards to that argument, the hazing/marring left behind m105 on a polishing pad and even light cutting pad is so light that it doesn't need a heavy polish to follow it. Any polish after it, if used correctly, really shouldn't be taking much cc off at all. I don't have a ptg but I doubt finishing polishes remove that much.



If anything, m105v1 is safer in the hands of an uniformed person due to its short worktime. It won't let them take off too much. Where as if someone went right to work with some powergloss on an orange pad, they most likely will be taking off way too much or leaving extreme hazing behind,
 
I always use a milder polish first, but a lot of times on newer cars with hard paints, you pretty much end up using 105 as your first step anyway. For as aggressive as it is, 105 leaves a pretty good finish that is easily (in most cases) cleaned up with a light polish/pad combo.
 
Just to be clear, D151 has cut in the realm of M83. I don't think "super light" is a very accurate way to describe it. I think D151 would fall into a general or medium polish in terms of cutting ability (of course ti varies by application method).
 
use sure? I think that it has a lot more filling action than cutting action...no where near 83 IME with it on two cars...I'll play some more with it on saturday when I have a three step to perform on a silverado
 
It's my understanding that M105, M86, and D151 all use different versions of their "Super Micro Abrasives" with M105 being the most agressive followed by M86 and then D151.



IME with D151 it is pad dependent just like M86.
 
toyotaguy said:
use sure? I think that it has a lot more filling action than cutting action...no where near 83 IME with it on two cars...I'll play some more with it on saturday when I have a three step to perform on a silverado
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Yes sir. In fact, I think Tim Lingor has posted on both Autopia and MOL about his success with a method similar to the KBM method. (I might be wrong on who posted it, but I think it was Tim...)

RDAVEX7 said:
It's my understanding that M105, M86, and D151 all use different versions of their "Super Micro Abrasives" with M105 being the most agressive followed by M86 and then D151.



IME with D151 it is pad dependent just like M86.
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Bingo!



You can add M205 to that list, as well as Ultimate Compound, ScratchX 2.0, and SwirlX too.
 
Lumadar said:
Just to be clear, D151 has cut in the realm of M83. I don't think "super light" is a very accurate way to describe it. I think D151 would fall into a general or medium polish in terms of cutting ability (of course ti varies by application method).
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Agreed and it is too aggressive for a rotary 1 step, even with a finishing pad....unless you like holograms. Via DA, it works great.
 
I think you guys missed my point.. I was simply saying that it's getting overused in the sense that it's recommended by anyone to anyone since it's getting such good reviews from the more experienced crowd... there's no more preaching to start with something light and move up, rather "buy M105/M205, or M105/106ff, or M105/etc"



I agree that it's a great product but I think people somewhat new to detailing/polishing should experiment with something like M80/M83 first to get a feel for it... or M205 for a while on its own... guess I'm in the lone minority here haha
 
it seems like 105 is used on every single car nowadays, no matter what level of correction it really needs, of course that can't really be the case. So with that being said, what are the best options for just some swirl marks or light marring? Is Megs 83 still the go to for lighter cut and 105 for everything else?
 
lecchilo said:
I think you guys missed my point.. I was simply saying that it's getting overused in the sense that it's recommended by anyone to anyone since it's getting such good reviews from the more experienced crowd... there's no more preaching to start with something light and move up, rather "buy M105/M205, or M105/106ff, or M105/etc"



I agree that it's a great product but I think people somewhat new to detailing/polishing should experiment with something like M80/M83 first to get a feel for it... or M205 for a while on its own... guess I'm in the lone minority here haha
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No I agree with you, although most won't admit it, it does seem as if 105 is automatically used no matter what
 
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