M105/KBM polish drying out 2 soon...

egoXtension

New member
Maybe this is a noob question but Im trying the KBM method & I dont get much time to polish before the 105 is turning to powder. Its also the messiest techinque Ive used in my short polishing experience. :D

If you have any tips for me - to keep the pad moist / reduce the dust - it would be appreciated. Seems I am having to spend to much time wiping the finish to keep it clean of polish dust - But the cutting effect looks good so far, I havent used the finish polish at all yet.
 
I had the same problem when I tried 105. It seemed that the product dried very quickly and when it did, the powder would go everywhere. It was actually pretty messy. At first I thought that it was my white pad starting to fray, but upon close inspection it turned out that the pad was fine. It was just the product drying to quickly.

One trick that I've seen is spraying the panel with water only (DI or bottled water) and then working the pad over it again to reactivate whatever product remains trapped in the pad. That little trick did a great job.

The one thing that I did try was pad priming. I was working with a LCC pad and 105 and noticed that it was going to take alot of 105 to get it primed. Not wanting to waste that much product, I abandoned my efforts and just began to work. Maybe I did something wrong? Does it take alot of product to prime? I've read some threads where people say that it just spreads on like butter. I tried that also but with bad results. Any tips for pad priming?
 
This is the amount of 105 I use on the pad, then I spray with a couple spritz's of water, then (and most importantly), I prime the pad by rubbing ALL of the compound into the pad with my fingers, until I can't see any of it. Just a white haze.

IMG_20111.jpg
 
Mequiar?s Super Micro Abrasive Technology (SMAT) - that is used in these polishes (M105 Ultra Cut Compound 1200 grit CAS 10/10 and M205 Ultra Finishing Polish CAS 3/10) utilizes non-diminishing abrasives. Using a compound with a random orbital polisher requires a very different technique, pressure, pad selection, pad priming (with the compound) etc. The product used is a non-diminishing, heavy cut compound, applied with a 6 ? inch LC CCS Orange Light Cutting or Yellow Cutting flat foam pads, (to ensure maximum abrasive used over minimum area)

[Like all non-diminishing compounds or polishes, they require a correctly primed pad, to ensure sufficient product, the use of applied pressure to ensure abrasive contact with the paint surface, this ensures constant surface contact. Non-diminishing abrasives require that you work the product until you achieve the desired finish.]

Pad grit number, amount of pressure applied and time will all affect the amount of abrasion achieved. If the initial process doesn?t provide the desired finish, increase the aggressiveness of the process; i.e. use a longer working time, increased pressure, increase the cut of the polishing pad. A properly primed cutting pad will eliminate most surface scratches and M205 will polish (burnish) the finish

This [ ] is how I was taught to use compound / polish five decades ago (diminishing abrasives were not available back then) gmblack has a lot more experience with M105 / 205 than I do, so listen to his advise
 
If you have any tips for me - to keep the pad moist / reduce the dust - it would be appreciated. Seems I am having to spend to much time wiping the finish to keep it clean of polish dust - .

Actually, one of the reasons I like 105 is because it produces so little dust. You could be using too much product. I will work an area "east to west" then "north to south" for about 5-7 minutes, until I see the shine coming through. Almost all of the polish (dust) is still in the pad. I'll use 2-4 pads on most vehicles.
 
Maybe this is a noob question but Im trying the KBM method & I dont get much time to polish before the 105 is turning to powder. Its also the messiest techinque Ive used in my short polishing experience. :D

If you have any tips for me - to keep the pad moist / reduce the dust - it would be appreciated. Seems I am having to spend to much time wiping the finish to keep it clean of polish dust - But the cutting effect looks good so far, I havent used the finish polish at all yet.


I'm going to email this thread/my response to Kevin so he can double check it and at least make sure that I am correct in my reasoning.

I'm going to start with the basics, but do you know what wax/sealant was last used on the paint? I tend to get heavy (like snow storm) level dusting when I apply certain polishes over certain LSP's or even on certain paints. I

The original M105 had a moderate amount of dust when used on a ROB, but I would never cause it excessive. The newer version of M105 is wetter, which seemed to reduce the dusting.

Dusting, in and of itself, is not a bad thing, although you there are a couple of vendors who simply are not educated enough to know the difference. In fact I am not sure how dusting got such a bad reputation to begin with. Why isn't bad?

During the polishing cycle the abrasives/liquid/pad/mechanical action are working together to remove trace amounts of paint. This paint is abraded away and becomes a very fine (but abrasive) powder. The removed paint can impregnate itself in the pad, cause the abrasives to lump together (making them, in effect bigger), or have a bunch of unwanted effects on the paint polishing process. It becomes an incontrollable variable that has some, usually negative, effect on the polishing process.

Because a product like M105 has 'non-diminishing' abrasives, this problem is exaggerated even more. It cuts (and removes) paint and at quick rate, that is fairly consistent through out the polishing cycle. The pad loads up with removed paint fairly quickly.

The dusting is the abrasives and spent paint coming dislodged from the paint's surface, in effect keeping the pad and pad interface 'cleaner.'

This is the exact reason why Menzerna Intensive Polish can out perform the usually more aggressive Menzerna Super Intensive Polish on heavily oxidized or very weathered paint. IP dusts more, but in effect, it keeps the pad 'cleaner' because it prevent pad loading.

Keeping in mind that it is good practice to wash the car (and remove dust) after polishing, we do want to reduce 'excessive dusting'.

I tend to wipe cars down with IPA before polishing, to remove any waxes or sealants that could be responsible for excessive dusting. (We need to hold the abrasives in the pad and on the paint so they can work).

Excessive product applied to the paint or to the pad can overload the pad and increase dusting as abrasives are forced out of the pores when pressure is applied. Take note to 'prime' the pad properly.

I 'like' and both CMA and Meguiars's recommend giving the pad a mist of M34 to help the product spread through the pad. Kevin, however, prefers using just the product to avoid any unwanted characteristics.

Apply a moderate amount of M105 to the face of the pad and work it well into the face of the pad your thumbs, trying to 'push' the product into the pad. Allow the pad to set for several minutes to allow the polish and lubricants to permeate the pours of the pad. THEN remove excessive polish (leaving just the a perfectly lubricated surface). I like to take a towel, lay it over the face of the pad, then rolls the pad and towel together tightly, like wringing out a towel.

Once primed, only a very small amount of additional polish needs to be added after each section to maintain effectiveness. However remember to clean the pad after each section to remove spent paint and clumped abrasives.

About the product 'drying' or flashing off during the buff cycle, this isn't as big as deal as it seems. Once the pad is primed and has a nice even coverage of fresh, impregnated abrasives, it is in a sense a dynamic 'sanding disk'.

As long as the pad remains wet (as opposed to the paint surface) it will work fine, which goes against the traditional thoughts off never going to a dry buff. How will you know if it's working fine? Polish under halogen lights and watch the surface as you polish it. Even when it appears to go 'dry' you will notice you are still removing defects with out causing paint scouring. However, if the pad dries up, you will notice that you will being to micro haze the surface. At that point you need to brush out or clean the pad and add more product.

Best of luck!
 
Letsee...late last summer the car got a coat of FMJ that was the last LSP. Also the finish was washed and clayed before any polishing.

Yes - pad (LC orange CCS) was primed over entire surface even filled in the dimples. Although I rubbed in the 105 it was still visible so I think I messed up in this respect - nor did I blot the pad or let the pad sit 5 minutes. I think there was too much product on the pad surface. ALSO - I did veer from the KBM - I remember now I had the D/A set to forced rotation (fairly high speed too) instead of just orbit... figuring that would cut better (quicker too) thats prolly why the polish was flinging all over the place, yipes! :o

Still if we suppose the pad WAS oversatruated with 105 why is the polish drying out so fast? Could high speed pad rotation be a factor? That and the pad wasnt really primed properly. BTW - The finish was plenty cool no direct sunlight, late afternoon.

My Concern over the polish dust: Is excessive dust going to undo what the polish is trying to do? I mean when the polish is drying out, if you continue to go over the area will that mess up the surface?

I think I better try again w/out the forced rotation and proper pad priming technique...If I missed anybodys question let me know.
 
TH0001- if I remember correctly, you likened using the so-called KBM to wet-sanding (arguably the most precise method of levelling paint).

This is how I would describe the comparison - comments?

When you semi-saturate the entire pad and spread the abrasives uniformly, keeping the pad flat while applying a constant / consistent pressure; thus ensuring constant paint / polish contact. It becomes similar to a piece of wet-sanding finishing paper and a sanding block, the oils in the polish provide the lubrication (like the water does in wet-sanding)
 
This is the amount of 105 I use on the pad, then I spray with a couple spritz's of water, then (and most importantly), I prime the pad by rubbing ALL of the compound into the pad with my fingers, until I can't see any of it. Just a white haze.

Hey Bill - are you priming the whole pad with those six blobs? Then I know I used too much. I have spray bottle of pad lube/primer wasnt sure if I should use that trying KBM. Dude, I had to quit Stop polishing after 30-40 secs. the polish was just powder and I didnt think it was doing any good by then.

Yes I was doin the cross-hatch pattern, but the drying out kept me from doing it very long. And then I was spending a lot of time WIPING the dry polish off.

I wasnt seeing much clumping on the pade, in fact pad looked really clean so mebee I wasnt taking off much Paint? Even goofing up like this the finish looked much better than it did.

I think I will do better going on Orbit only, using less product. a spritz of liquid now and then. Going just take some trial and error.
 
Letsee...late last summer the car got a coat of FMJ that was the last LSP. Also the finish was washed and clayed before any polishing.

The washing and claying will remove the FMJ. The only problem seems to occur when certain silicone products are used prior to polishing, that are very difficult to fully remove from the paint (like washing Vaseline from your hands). The ONLY issue in that regard could have been your choice of quick detailer you used during the claying. When you wipe the surface clean you are, in a sense, applying the quick detailer to the paint. Certain quick detailers could interfere with certain polishes, although the effect will likely be negligible.

Yes - pad (LC orange CCS) was primed over entire surface even filled in the dimples. Although I rubbed in the 105 it was still visible so I think I messed up in this respect - nor did I blot the pad or let the pad sit 5 minutes. I think there was too much product on the pad surface.

You did likely overload the pad with product which can lead to numerous issues, including product smears, clumping, dusting, or drying out, or a reduction in cutting power. The goal of priming the pad is to introduce some abrasives to the pad in the most uniform manner as well as to ensure that same exact lubricant used in the polish is used through out the pad. With non-diminishing abrasive polishes such as M205/M105/M86 this becomes more vital for optimal performance.

After allowing the polish and lubricants to permeate the pad, clean the pad's surface thoroughly to remove the excess polish, but leave the pad slightly damp with lubricant.


ALSO - I did veer from the KBM - I remember now I had the D/A set to forced rotation (fairly high speed too) instead of just orbit... figuring that would cut better (quicker too) thats prolly why the polish was flinging all over the place, yipes! :o

Keep in mind that M105 and M205 (as well as M86) where developed for rotary use, so you can use the products with forced rotation, but it will change the dynamics.

Because products using the 'non-diminishing abrasives' will remain functional through out the buffing cycle, the longer we work the product efficiently, the greater the potential for correction to occur. To make the ultra fine abrasives work in M105, it is likely that a drier lubricant had to be used.

When used by a rotary, the original M105 had a working time of 10-15 seconds, maybe a little more or less. You could work it longer but in general you would sacrifice cut and scour the paint surface. With a rotary, instead of working one application 30 seconds to achieve the desired result, it is far more efficient (more cut and a better finish) by making two 15 second applications.

The advantage of a dual action polisher is that it will not produce as much heat in the pad or on the surface of the paint. As temperatures increase, the lubricants evaporate quicker, as on a rotary. Using a forced rotation is going to increase the temperature on the paint's surface and in the pad, which will dry out the lubricants faster.

Since a DA runs the paint/pad cooler, it is possible to run M105 longer (while maintaining a great finish) and possibly get more defect removal per application then with a rotary polisher. Because a DA application is going to take longer, it doesn't necessary mean you are going to save time.

By using the forced rotation, it is possible that the extra heat generated by the pad/paint dried out the lubricant faster.



Still if we suppose the pad WAS oversatruated with 105 why is the polish drying out so fast? Could high speed pad rotation be a factor? That and the pad wasnt really primed properly. BTW - The finish was plenty cool no direct sunlight, late afternoon.

Excessive application of product can cause the polish to dry faster and reduce cutting properties, particularly with non-diminishing abrasives.

A typical misconception is that adding more product to the pad will increase the working time. This can work on certain diminishing abrasive polishes, because the solids (abrasives) in break down, leaving behind the lubricant. Think Menzerna SIP, which uses traditional abrasives and has a very thick, long lasting lubricant. Excessive application of that product can make removing all of the lubricant very difficult. The abrasives break down (although much slower) and the excess lubricant remains.

With diminishing abrasive technology, the abrasives, in essence, will last longer the the lubricant it is held in. The opposite of what occurs with traditional diminishing abrasives. That is why overworking the product leaves behind dry clumps that can be very difficult to remove (vs. lubricant that can be difficult to remove). In this case adding excessive polish isn't just adding more lubricant, but also adding more abrasives.


My Concern over the polish dust: Is excessive dust going to undo what the polish is trying to do? I mean when the polish is drying out, if you continue to go over the area will that mess up the surface?

It depends if the dust is on the working surface itself or the working area adjacent to the working area. The dust is going to be a combination of the abrasives in the polish and the removed paint. If the working area gets a little dusting, I don't worry about it too much, particularity if I am going to be using subsequent polishing steps that will further refine the surface.

The dust is going to be as aggressive as the abrasives are when they are expelled. Keep in mind that most traditional polishes feature diminishing abrasives, so they can 'dust' at various sizes and cuts. Compounds, or aggressive polishes, can have drier lubricants that dust faster, and leave behind abrasives that are still pretty rough. M105 has very fine abrasives that the dust is going to comparably less aggressive.

So how much concern you place on the dust is going to be based on the aggressiveness of the dust and what your goals are at the time.

If you are compounding the car, or aggressively polishing, the goals of defect removal are more important then the absolute best gloss (which is a becomes more a priority in subsequent, finer steps). However if you have a lot dust on the surface after compounding, it is a good idea pressure rinse the vehicle. You do not want dust on the car, in the trim, or in a vent, to land on the paint as you are polishing it with a finer step.

If you are in the process of final polishing the car, dusting becomes more of an issue, because the goal is to reduce any marring. At this point any aggressive dust could comprise the final results. Most final polishes use a pretty thick lubricant which reduces dusting and allows the abrasives to fully dissolve (in the case of traditional diminishing abrasives) to bring the paint to the highest shine.


I think I better try again w/out the forced rotation and proper pad priming technique...If I missed anybodys question let me know.

Part of detailing is trouble shooting, please let me know how it turns out!!
 
I think you have enlighted me on the details...

Thanks for the explanations, Todd !

Will post back here when I have given it another shot...started raining while I was cleaning my motor :cursing:

Cant do much outside in the rain but maybe will clear up befor the day is done.
 
The washing and claying will remove the FMJ. The only problem seems to occur when certain silicone products are used prior to polishing, that are very difficult to fully remove from the paint (like washing Vaseline from your hands). The ONLY issue in that regard could have been your choice of quick detailer you used during the claying. When you wipe the surface clean you are, in a sense, applying the quick detailer to the paint. Certain quick detailers could interfere with certain polishes, although the effect will likely be negligible.



You did likely overload the pad with product which can lead to numerous issues, including product smears, clumping, dusting, or drying out, or a reduction in cutting power. The goal of priming the pad is to introduce some abrasives to the pad in the most uniform manner as well as to ensure that same exact lubricant used in the polish is used through out the pad. With non-diminishing abrasive polishes such as M205/M105/M86 this becomes more vital for optimal performance.

After allowing the polish and lubricants to permeate the pad, clean the pad's surface thoroughly to remove the excess polish, but leave the pad slightly damp with lubricant.




Keep in mind that M105 and M205 (as well as M86) where developed for rotary use, so you can use the products with forced rotation, but it will change the dynamics.

Because products using the 'non-diminishing abrasives' will remain functional through out the buffing cycle, the longer we work the product efficiently, the greater the potential for correction to occur. To make the ultra fine abrasives work in M105, it is likely that a drier lubricant had to be used.

When used by a rotary, the original M105 had a working time of 10-15 seconds, maybe a little more or less. You could work it longer but in general you would sacrifice cut and scour the paint surface. With a rotary, instead of working one application 30 seconds to achieve the desired result, it is far more efficient (more cut and a better finish) by making two 15 second applications.

The advantage of a dual action polisher is that it will not produce as much heat in the pad or on the surface of the paint. As temperatures increase, the lubricants evaporate quicker, as on a rotary. Using a forced rotation is going to increase the temperature on the paint's surface and in the pad, which will dry out the lubricants faster.

Since a DA runs the paint/pad cooler, it is possible to run M105 longer (while maintaining a great finish) and possibly get more defect removal per application then with a rotary polisher. Because a DA application is going to take longer, it doesn't necessary mean you are going to save time.

By using the forced rotation, it is possible that the extra heat generated by the pad/paint dried out the lubricant faster.





Excessive application of product can cause the polish to dry faster and reduce cutting properties, particularly with non-diminishing abrasives.

A typical misconception is that adding more product to the pad will increase the working time. This can work on certain diminishing abrasive polishes, because the solids (abrasives) in break down, leaving behind the lubricant. Think Menzerna SIP, which uses traditional abrasives and has a very thick, long lasting lubricant. Excessive application of that product can make removing all of the lubricant very difficult. The abrasives break down (although much slower) and the excess lubricant remains.

With diminishing abrasive technology, the abrasives, in essence, will last longer the the lubricant it is held in. The opposite of what occurs with traditional diminishing abrasives. That is why overworking the product leaves behind dry clumps that can be very difficult to remove (vs. lubricant that can be difficult to remove). In this case adding excessive polish isn't just adding more lubricant, but also adding more abrasives.




It depends if the dust is on the working surface itself or the working area adjacent to the working area. The dust is going to be a combination of the abrasives in the polish and the removed paint. If the working area gets a little dusting, I don't worry about it too much, particularity if I am going to be using subsequent polishing steps that will further refine the surface.

The dust is going to be as aggressive as the abrasives are when they are expelled. Keep in mind that most traditional polishes feature diminishing abrasives, so they can 'dust' at various sizes and cuts. Compounds, or aggressive polishes, can have drier lubricants that dust faster, and leave behind abrasives that are still pretty rough. M105 has very fine abrasives that the dust is going to comparably less aggressive.

So how much concern you place on the dust is going to be based on the aggressiveness of the dust and what your goals are at the time.

If you are compounding the car, or aggressively polishing, the goals of defect removal are more important then the absolute best gloss (which is a becomes more a priority in subsequent, finer steps). However if you have a lot dust on the surface after compounding, it is a good idea pressure rinse the vehicle. You do not want dust on the car, in the trim, or in a vent, to land on the paint as you are polishing it with a finer step.

If you are in the process of final polishing the car, dusting becomes more of an issue, because the goal is to reduce any marring. At this point any aggressive dust could comprise the final results. Most final polishes use a pretty thick lubricant which reduces dusting and allows the abrasives to fully dissolve (in the case of traditional diminishing abrasives) to bring the paint to the highest shine.




Part of detailing is trouble shooting, please let me know how it turns out!!

Todd, this is some freaking great info! This is where your experience is shining through on here. I'm learning so much. Just wanted to say "thanks".
 
Todd, this is some freaking great info! This is where your experience is shining through on here. I'm learning so much. Just wanted to say "thanks".

Im glad this thread is helping other members out as well as myself.

Im going to try again tomorow with better understanding of the product and procedure - so my next session with M105 should be way more effective and, um less messy...:thumbup:
 
I'm going to start with the basics, but do you know what wax/sealant was last used on the paint? I tend to get heavy (like snow storm) level dusting when I apply certain polishes over certain LSP's or even on certain paints. I

The original M105 had a moderate amount of dust when used on a ROB, but I would never cause it excessive. The newer version of M105 is wetter, which seemed to reduce the dusting.

Good point! It is extremely important to make sure that there previous protectant is removed. For example, Jason sanded two areas with 2500 grit; one area was clean and the other had a coat of M26. Even though M26 is just a wax, it significantly reduced the cut of the abrasive.

The dusting can also be attributed to the environment. Around here in the hot and humid midwest, I find that the original M105 hardly dusts at all, yet the new formula M105 dusts pretty bad. But, the dust is not a bad thing.

Misting water is not a good thing to do while polishing with M105. Yes, the original formula M105 can dust. If you add water to the process, then you are forcing the dust (with abrasives) to clump together and cause swirling.

Here is a quote from Kevin's paper:

"While the dusting is bothersome, it is controllable. Methodical cleaning of the pad and paint surface prior to the reapplication of buffing liquid virtually eliminates dusting concerns. While not generally considered useful, dusting of the spent abrasive helps to remove the contaminated and moisture-deprived abrasive from the pad (and freshly polished surface)."


I find that most of the problems with pad priming come from a lack of product or too much product. If there is not enough product on the pad, then the lubricants will quickly dry up. M105 and the other products are dependant on the lubricants. Too much lubricant will lead to a decrease in cut. Too little lubricant and the product will flash or dry quickly.

When I am DA polishing with a non-diminishing abrasive product, I prime the pad and add four small dots of product. For the next section, I apply a minimal amount of product. Remember to keep the pad clean. It is always best to keep fresh product in the pad. The cleaner you clean the pad, the finer the finish will be. This means that you have to clean the pad more often than usual.
 
I average 8, 5.5 inch orange pads per average car when compounding with 105. I also clean them after every section, on the fly, with a dampened MF towel. To me, it's compounding. You're removing more clear coat than with a polish. You're also using a stouter chemical with larger abrasives. Dusting is going to occur! It's no big deal. I have time allowed to re-wash and then air dry (leaf blower) the vehicle. This only takes 15 minutes. I'm just way more concerned about the finish than a dusting problem.
 
For my full details, I do a wipe down with Stoner's Tarminator. I've done this for years without a problem at all. I also use it to remove any silicones that are left on the tires. Since I have a shop now, I've bought 5 gallons in liquid form. One product I cannot live without.
 
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